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[Music]

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[Applause]

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[Music]

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welcome back to the ufo rabbit hole

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podcast i'm your host kelly chase today

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we're diving into part three of our

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series on nazi ufo lore

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this episode was supposed to complete

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the trilogy but once i started writing

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it immediately became clear that that

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wasn't going to happen

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that's because today we're going to be

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talking about one of my favorite topics

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in ufo lore antarctica

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as you'll see some of the most

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outlandish and bizarre stories come out

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of antarctica

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and as if a remote frozen continent at

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the bottom of the world wasn't enough on

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its own to create an air of mystique and

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intrigue the lore around antarctica is

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especially compelling because of the

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ways in which it bumps up against real

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historical people and events making it

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hard to tell where history ends and

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fantasy begins

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and there's so much to dig into

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even after giving antarctica a full

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episode i feel like we'll barely scratch

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the surface of all that's there so let's

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not waste any more time and just get to

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it

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there is perhaps no region on earth more

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remote and more mysterious than

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antarctica

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covered in a layer of ice with an

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average thickness of 1.2 miles the fifth

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largest continent sits at the southern

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pole in the middle of the equally

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enigmatic southern ocean

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the southern ocean is different from

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other oceans on earth in a few distinct

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ways

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perhaps the most notable is that it's

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the only ocean that is surrounded on all

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sides by water it's defined by a swift

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undertow called the antarctic

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circumpolar current or acc that flows

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from west to east around antarctica

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the current extends out to 60 degrees

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south latitude and acts as an invisible

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wall separating the freezing southern

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ocean from the warmer saltier atlantic

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pacific and indian oceans

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this separation makes both the continent

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and the southern ocean ecologically

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distinct hosting countless diverse life

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forms many of which have likely not even

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been discovered the reason for the

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mystery surrounding the southernmost

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continent beyond its remoteness is that

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it has what is undoubtedly the least

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hospitable climate on earth with high

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temperatures on the coasts peaking at

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just 50 degrees fahrenheit or 10 degrees

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celsius and lows at the interior of the

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continent plummeting to negative 112

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degrees fahrenheit or negative 80

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degrees celsius

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antarctica is the coldest windiest and

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driest place on earth so what was it

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about antarctica that drew both the

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attention and the resources of nazi

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germany down to the very bottom of the

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world in the critical years leading up

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to world war ii

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what were they looking for and more

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importantly what did they actually find

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and most intriguingly could what was

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left of the third reich have really

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escaped to secret bases in antarctica at

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the end of world war ii

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we'll spend the next two episodes

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attempting to answer those questions so

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let's begin by talking through the

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various theories about what nazi germany

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may have found during their expedition

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to antarctica in 1938. one of the most

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notorious of these theories is that they

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discovered that antarctica was the site

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of the lost city of atlantis and the

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highly advanced civilization from which

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it sprang

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but how could antarctica be atlantis

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does that even make sense

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first we need to take a step back

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before we can determine if antarctica

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could really be the last civilization of

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atlantis we first have to determine if

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atlantis was real in the first place and

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as you might imagine that's a matter of

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some significant debate with most

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mainstream scholars falling on the side

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that says that atlantis is nothing more

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than a myth

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and considering how little direct

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evidence we have of the existence of

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atlantis it's easy to understand why

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the closest thing that we have to a

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primary source regarding the existence

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and history of atlantis appears in the

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works of plato from the 4th century bc

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specifically in his dialogues timaeus

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and kritius

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all other known references to atlantis

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are based on the limited amount of

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information that can be found in those

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two texts but if atlantis was real and

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if its history was known to the ancient

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greeks how could this be all that

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remains of this mighty civilization

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one explanation and the one that is most

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commonly accepted among mainstream

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scholars is that the story of atlantis

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is just an allegory it's a literary

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device employed by plato to tell a story

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about the dangers of greed hubris and

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moral bankruptcy and how those vices can

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destroy a civilization

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in other words it's just a story and it

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was never meant to be taken literally

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but there's actually another explanation

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that is given in temaeus for why this

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might be the case and given everything

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that we explored in the rational

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approach to ancient aliens series i

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found this explanation to be

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particularly compelling

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plato's dialogue to maus is primarily

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focused on the nature of both the

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physical world and of human beings and

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dives into topics such as the purpose

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and properties of the universe

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and in the midst of all of this there is

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the first mention of atlantis through a

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story about the athenian statesman and

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poet solon and his travels to egypt

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in this story solon goes to an ancient

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egyptian city in the western nile delta

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called saiyas the founder of the city

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was said to be a goddess whose name was

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neath in the egyptian tongue but the

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people of the city recognized that this

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was the same goddess who was called

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athena by the greeks because of this

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connection the citizens of sais are big

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fans of the athenian culture and believe

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themselves to be in some way related to

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them

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solon is received with great honor by

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the local priests being a scholar of

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history and antiquity himself he tries

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to get the priest to speak with him on

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these topics he starts by laying out his

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own understanding of history thinking

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that this will draw them into the

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conversation but it becomes clear very

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quickly that they are not impressed

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the priests tell him that he and all of

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his countrymen are basically like

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children without an old man among them

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solon asks what they mean by this and

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they tell him that his people only

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remember one great flood but that in

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fact there have been many destructions

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of mankind

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the most catastrophic of these events

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have been caused by water as with the

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great flood or by fire but that there

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have also been innumerable other smaller

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catastrophes that have come about due to

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other causes as well the priests tell

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solon that some of these catastrophes

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are recorded in what athenians believe

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to be myths but that these myths

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actually point to real events

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the example is given of the story of

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pathon the son of helios who having

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yoked the steeds of his father's chariot

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because he was not able to drive them in

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the path of his father burnt up all that

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was upon the earth and was himself

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destroyed by a thunderbolt

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they tell solon that although this story

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has the form of a myth that it describes

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real events that involve things falling

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from the skies that cause massive

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widespread catastrophic fires and that

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this happens at regular intervals over

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long periods of time the priests say to

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him quote

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the fact is that wherever the extremity

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of winter frost or of summer does not

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prevent

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mankind exists sometimes in greater

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sometimes in lesser numbers

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and whatever happened either in your

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country or in ours or in any other

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region of which we are informed if there

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were any actions noble or great or in

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any other way remarkable they have all

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been written down by us of old and are

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preserved in our temples

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whereas just when you and other nations

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are beginning to be provided with

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letters and other requisites of

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civilized life after the usual interval

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the stream from heaven like a pestilence

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comes pouring down and leaves only those

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of you who are destitute of letters and

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education and so you have to begin all

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over again like children and know

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nothing of what happened in ancient

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times either among us or among

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yourselves end quote

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crazy right

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there are a couple of things here that

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jump out at me

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the first is that the cycles of

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catastrophic events that occur at

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regular intervals and serve as a sort of

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reset on human civilization by knocking

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most of the people on the planet back to

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the stone age sounds a lot like what has

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been proposed by proponents of

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catastrophism in more modern times

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as you'll recall catastrophism is a

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geological theory that the earth has

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been largely shaped by sudden

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short-lived violent events that were

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worldwide in scope much like noah's

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flood in the bible in episode 10 we

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talked about the works of charles

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halfgood and chan thomas who each

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believed in some version of

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catastrophism that involved the earth's

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crust periodically slipping on the

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mantle dramatically changing and

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resurfacing the earth through

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devastating global fires and flooding

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and though these theories can sound a

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little far-fetched particularly given

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that we're generally taught in school

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that major geological changes happen

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slowly over millions of years the ideas

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of these men were taken seriously by

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notables ranging from albert einstein to

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the cia

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these men were all writing about their

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theories in the mid 20th century and

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while the roots of catastrophism are

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traditionally traced back to the works

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of french scientist george cuvier in the

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early 18th century this account in

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timaeus which was written in 360 bc

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suggests that this idea has its roots in

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the distant past

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so is the story in temaeus really just

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an allegory or could it be that we are

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like the athenians whose history has

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been washed away burned and buried by a

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series of cataclysms

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the second thing that jumped out at me

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is this line that begins

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whereas just when you and other nations

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are beginning to be provided with

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letters and the other requisites of

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civilized life

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the word provided here is definitely

280
00:10:11,590 --> 00:10:10,399
interesting though perhaps not

281
00:10:13,590 --> 00:10:11,600
surprising

282
00:10:15,750 --> 00:10:13,600
after all we know that basically all

283
00:10:17,350 --> 00:10:15,760
ancient peoples had stories of wisdom

284
00:10:19,030 --> 00:10:17,360
and knowledge including things like the

285
00:10:21,350 --> 00:10:19,040
use of fire and the development of

286
00:10:22,870 --> 00:10:21,360
written language being given to humans

287
00:10:24,790 --> 00:10:22,880
by the gods

288
00:10:26,630 --> 00:10:24,800
the ancients didn't believe as we do now

289
00:10:29,110 --> 00:10:26,640
that the development of civilization was

290
00:10:30,389 --> 00:10:29,120
the result of a long slow linear

291
00:10:32,389 --> 00:10:30,399
progression

292
00:10:34,389 --> 00:10:32,399
rather they believe that the sparks of

293
00:10:36,790 --> 00:10:34,399
civilization were lit within groups of

294
00:10:38,870 --> 00:10:36,800
early humans by the gods themselves

295
00:10:41,030 --> 00:10:38,880
causing massive quantum leaps forward in

296
00:10:43,750 --> 00:10:41,040
the areas of language mathematics

297
00:10:46,470 --> 00:10:43,760
astronomy geometry architecture and

298
00:10:48,069 --> 00:10:46,480
other cornerstones of human civilization

299
00:10:50,389 --> 00:10:48,079
and as we explored in the rational

300
00:10:52,230 --> 00:10:50,399
approach to ancient aliens series there

301
00:10:54,470 --> 00:10:52,240
is some significant evidence to suggest

302
00:10:56,470 --> 00:10:54,480
that human civilization did in fact

303
00:10:58,710 --> 00:10:56,480
emerge in rapid surprising and

304
00:11:00,710 --> 00:10:58,720
non-linear ways for which we don't have

305
00:11:02,310 --> 00:11:00,720
any good explanation

306
00:11:04,790 --> 00:11:02,320
and when we also consider what we

307
00:11:07,590 --> 00:11:04,800
learned in episode 7 this becomes even

308
00:11:09,269 --> 00:11:07,600
more intriguing because as you'll recall

309
00:11:11,269 --> 00:11:09,279
tom de long has said that the thing that

310
00:11:13,030 --> 00:11:11,279
got his high-level government advisors

311
00:11:15,829 --> 00:11:13,040
to take him seriously on the topic of

312
00:11:19,030 --> 00:11:15,839
ufos was the idea that the phenomenon

313
00:11:21,030 --> 00:11:19,040
represents multiple gods with a little g

314
00:11:22,470 --> 00:11:21,040
but have played a major role in shaping

315
00:11:23,990 --> 00:11:22,480
human history

316
00:11:25,910 --> 00:11:24,000
i don't know what i was expecting to

317
00:11:27,670 --> 00:11:25,920
find when i went back and read plato's

318
00:11:30,470 --> 00:11:27,680
dialogues looking for information about

319
00:11:32,150 --> 00:11:30,480
atlantis but it wasn't all of that and

320
00:11:34,550 --> 00:11:32,160
while none of this is enough to really

321
00:11:36,949 --> 00:11:34,560
prove anything decisively about atlantis

322
00:11:39,269 --> 00:11:36,959
the ufo phenomenon massive cataclysms or

323
00:11:40,949 --> 00:11:39,279
really anything else it's hard not to be

324
00:11:42,870 --> 00:11:40,959
intrigued by the congruency between

325
00:11:44,550 --> 00:11:42,880
these different stories or to wonder

326
00:11:45,910 --> 00:11:44,560
about the extent to which they might be

327
00:11:48,230 --> 00:11:45,920
true

328
00:11:50,790 --> 00:11:48,240
so getting back to the matter at hand

329
00:11:52,550 --> 00:11:50,800
what else do we know about atlantis

330
00:11:54,550 --> 00:11:52,560
while the idea of atlantis is first

331
00:11:56,550 --> 00:11:54,560
introduced into emmaus most of the

332
00:11:59,030 --> 00:11:56,560
details of the history and location of

333
00:12:01,190 --> 00:11:59,040
atlantis are found in another of plato's

334
00:12:03,269 --> 00:12:01,200
dialogues critteas

335
00:12:05,269 --> 00:12:03,279
kritius is the primary speaker in this

336
00:12:07,430 --> 00:12:05,279
dialogue and he conveys the story of

337
00:12:10,389 --> 00:12:07,440
atlantis that he claims was told to his

338
00:12:12,230 --> 00:12:10,399
great-grandfather by solon himself

339
00:12:14,710 --> 00:12:12,240
combining the details contained into

340
00:12:17,430 --> 00:12:14,720
maest with the accounts and criteus this

341
00:12:19,750 --> 00:12:17,440
is the story of atlantis that emerges

342
00:12:21,750 --> 00:12:19,760
the tale begins 9 000 years before the

343
00:12:24,069 --> 00:12:21,760
dialogues were written so approximately

344
00:12:25,990 --> 00:12:24,079
9 500 bc

345
00:12:27,509 --> 00:12:26,000
at this time the whole region

346
00:12:29,829 --> 00:12:27,519
surrounding what we now know is the

347
00:12:32,310 --> 00:12:29,839
mediterranean sea was ruled over by the

348
00:12:34,470 --> 00:12:32,320
ancestors of the athenians who were a

349
00:12:36,310 --> 00:12:34,480
great and noble civilization

350
00:12:38,389 --> 00:12:36,320
the world beyond what the ancient greeks

351
00:12:40,629 --> 00:12:38,399
knew as the pillars of hercules and what

352
00:12:42,310 --> 00:12:40,639
we now call the strait of gibraltar

353
00:12:44,790 --> 00:12:42,320
which connects the mediterranean to the

354
00:12:46,150 --> 00:12:44,800
atlantic ocean was ruled over by the

355
00:12:49,590 --> 00:12:46,160
atlanteans

356
00:12:51,110 --> 00:12:49,600
aggression in an attempt to conquer and

357
00:12:52,389 --> 00:12:51,120
enslave the people living around the

358
00:12:54,069 --> 00:12:52,399
mediterranean

359
00:12:55,990 --> 00:12:54,079
but the ancestors of the athenians

360
00:12:58,389 --> 00:12:56,000
managed to defeat them and secure the

361
00:13:00,629 --> 00:12:58,399
freedom of the entire region

362
00:13:03,190 --> 00:13:00,639
however following their victory there

363
00:13:04,629 --> 00:13:03,200
occurred violent earthquakes and floods

364
00:13:07,269 --> 00:13:04,639
and in a single day and night of

365
00:13:09,750 --> 00:13:07,279
misfortune the lands belonging to both

366
00:13:11,829 --> 00:13:09,760
the victors and the defeated atlanteans

367
00:13:14,389 --> 00:13:11,839
sank into the sea

368
00:13:16,710 --> 00:13:14,399
so we know how the story ends but what

369
00:13:18,870 --> 00:13:16,720
else do we know about atlantis

370
00:13:20,949 --> 00:13:18,880
according to the story conveyed to solon

371
00:13:23,509 --> 00:13:20,959
in the early days of man the earth was

372
00:13:25,509 --> 00:13:23,519
presided over by the gods who divided up

373
00:13:28,150 --> 00:13:25,519
the world into different allotments over

374
00:13:30,230 --> 00:13:28,160
which they ruled the god poseidon was

375
00:13:32,389 --> 00:13:30,240
given the island of atlantis

376
00:13:34,710 --> 00:13:32,399
the island was long and almost perfectly

377
00:13:36,389 --> 00:13:34,720
oval-shaped and was located just beyond

378
00:13:37,350 --> 00:13:36,399
the pillars of hercules in the atlantic

379
00:13:39,509 --> 00:13:37,360
ocean

380
00:13:41,670 --> 00:13:39,519
at the center of the island was a large

381
00:13:43,509 --> 00:13:41,680
flat fertile plain which was ringed by

382
00:13:45,750 --> 00:13:43,519
towering mountains that were said to be

383
00:13:48,310 --> 00:13:45,760
taller and more magnificent than any

384
00:13:50,150 --> 00:13:48,320
mountains known today there were

385
00:13:51,910 --> 00:13:50,160
primitive humans living on the island

386
00:13:53,590 --> 00:13:51,920
and poseidon fell in love with a young

387
00:13:55,350 --> 00:13:53,600
woman named clato

388
00:13:57,030 --> 00:13:55,360
and because they were in love they did

389
00:13:58,310 --> 00:13:57,040
what adult people do when they love each

390
00:14:00,150 --> 00:13:58,320
other very much

391
00:14:01,590 --> 00:14:00,160
which obviously is to ask each other

392
00:14:03,269 --> 00:14:01,600
what you want to eat for dinner forever

393
00:14:05,430 --> 00:14:03,279
until one of you dies

394
00:14:07,910 --> 00:14:05,440
just kidding they had sex

395
00:14:10,230 --> 00:14:07,920
from this union came five sets of twins

396
00:14:12,470 --> 00:14:10,240
all male who became the ten kings of

397
00:14:15,110 --> 00:14:12,480
atlantis and the kingdom was divided up

398
00:14:17,189 --> 00:14:15,120
among them the first born of the oldest

399
00:14:19,189 --> 00:14:17,199
set of twins atlas was given the

400
00:14:21,590 --> 00:14:19,199
beautiful capital city which poseidon

401
00:14:23,189 --> 00:14:21,600
had built for clato

402
00:14:25,670 --> 00:14:23,199
the city was laid out in a set of

403
00:14:28,069 --> 00:14:25,680
concentric rings three of water and two

404
00:14:29,189 --> 00:14:28,079
of land with the main palace sitting at

405
00:14:31,189 --> 00:14:29,199
the center

406
00:14:33,189 --> 00:14:31,199
bridges connected each of the rings and

407
00:14:35,030 --> 00:14:33,199
a wide canal was dug from the center of

408
00:14:37,110 --> 00:14:35,040
the city out to the sea

409
00:14:38,949 --> 00:14:37,120
the entire city was built from the red

410
00:14:40,870 --> 00:14:38,959
black and white rocks that were quarried

411
00:14:42,550 --> 00:14:40,880
from the surrounding mountains and the

412
00:14:45,269 --> 00:14:42,560
walls and temples were covered with

413
00:14:47,590 --> 00:14:45,279
silver and gold the kingdom was wealthy

414
00:14:49,269 --> 00:14:47,600
and prosperous the surrounding land was

415
00:14:51,030 --> 00:14:49,279
fertile and provided everything the

416
00:14:52,790 --> 00:14:51,040
people could need and their mighty

417
00:14:54,470 --> 00:14:52,800
kingdom drew traitors from around the

418
00:14:55,750 --> 00:14:54,480
world who brought what little else they

419
00:14:57,430 --> 00:14:55,760
might desire

420
00:14:59,350 --> 00:14:57,440
they even had a bunch of free roaming

421
00:15:00,790 --> 00:14:59,360
elephants which i think we can all agree

422
00:15:02,389 --> 00:15:00,800
is a luxury

423
00:15:04,150 --> 00:15:02,399
and the descendants of atlas were a

424
00:15:05,350 --> 00:15:04,160
strong and honorable family that

425
00:15:07,670 --> 00:15:05,360
maintained the kingdom through

426
00:15:09,829 --> 00:15:07,680
generations of relative peace

427
00:15:11,590 --> 00:15:09,839
however over many generations as they

428
00:15:14,230 --> 00:15:11,600
became further and further removed from

429
00:15:16,870 --> 00:15:14,240
their celestial progenitors the divine

430
00:15:19,189 --> 00:15:16,880
nature of the atlanteans began to fade

431
00:15:21,829 --> 00:15:19,199
they became greedy materialistic and

432
00:15:24,550 --> 00:15:21,839
power hungry this drew the attention of

433
00:15:27,030 --> 00:15:24,560
zeus the god of gods who decided that he

434
00:15:29,110 --> 00:15:27,040
needed to punish the atlanteans so he

435
00:15:30,389 --> 00:15:29,120
gathered all of the gods together and he

436
00:15:32,629 --> 00:15:30,399
said

437
00:15:34,790 --> 00:15:32,639
and that's where it ends

438
00:15:36,790 --> 00:15:34,800
the rest of cretius was lost and no

439
00:15:38,790 --> 00:15:36,800
known record of it remains

440
00:15:40,710 --> 00:15:38,800
we don't know what zeus said to the gods

441
00:15:42,230 --> 00:15:40,720
or how all of this relates to the war

442
00:15:44,710 --> 00:15:42,240
that preceded their ultimate sinking

443
00:15:46,550 --> 00:15:44,720
into the sea or even exactly what caused

444
00:15:48,470 --> 00:15:46,560
it to sink in the first place

445
00:15:50,550 --> 00:15:48,480
all of those details are lost to the

446
00:15:52,389 --> 00:15:50,560
sands of time

447
00:15:54,629 --> 00:15:52,399
so now that we know what remains of the

448
00:15:57,350 --> 00:15:54,639
story of atlantis what evidence is there

449
00:15:59,590 --> 00:15:57,360
that atlantis was actually real

450
00:16:02,389 --> 00:15:59,600
first of all while direct evidence of

451
00:16:04,470 --> 00:16:02,399
atlantis itself may be scarce i'd argue

452
00:16:06,150 --> 00:16:04,480
that there is considerable evidence for

453
00:16:08,629 --> 00:16:06,160
the existence of pockets of highly

454
00:16:11,189 --> 00:16:08,639
advanced civilization before the last

455
00:16:13,350 --> 00:16:11,199
ice age around 12 000 years ago

456
00:16:14,949 --> 00:16:13,360
in fact i have made that argument across

457
00:16:17,189 --> 00:16:14,959
the three episodes in the rational

458
00:16:19,509 --> 00:16:17,199
approach to ancient aliens series and so

459
00:16:21,350 --> 00:16:19,519
i won't spend too much time on that here

460
00:16:23,910 --> 00:16:21,360
but suffice it to say that whether or

461
00:16:25,350 --> 00:16:23,920
not atlantis literally existed or not

462
00:16:27,189 --> 00:16:25,360
the myth of an ancient advanced

463
00:16:29,590 --> 00:16:27,199
civilization that was destroyed in a

464
00:16:32,069 --> 00:16:29,600
massive cataclysm seems to point to

465
00:16:34,230 --> 00:16:32,079
something real in our remote past a

466
00:16:35,749 --> 00:16:34,240
secret history that we have forgotten

467
00:16:38,310 --> 00:16:35,759
and the evidence of this startling

468
00:16:41,269 --> 00:16:38,320
reality can be found in virtually every

469
00:16:42,949 --> 00:16:41,279
far-flung corner of the globe

470
00:16:44,710 --> 00:16:42,959
however if one wants to look for

471
00:16:46,790 --> 00:16:44,720
evidence of the literal existence of

472
00:16:49,430 --> 00:16:46,800
atlantis the ultimate proof would be

473
00:16:51,269 --> 00:16:49,440
finding the sunken capital city itself

474
00:16:53,350 --> 00:16:51,279
and given the precise details given in

475
00:16:55,110 --> 00:16:53,360
plato's work and the unusual layout of

476
00:16:57,430 --> 00:16:55,120
the city with its concentric rings of

477
00:16:59,910 --> 00:16:57,440
canals if it was ever found it would

478
00:17:01,590 --> 00:16:59,920
hypothetically be easy to identify

479
00:17:02,710 --> 00:17:01,600
and some believe that we actually have

480
00:17:05,029 --> 00:17:02,720
found it

481
00:17:07,350 --> 00:17:05,039
in the western sahara desert there is a

482
00:17:09,669 --> 00:17:07,360
large geological anomaly called the eye

483
00:17:11,029 --> 00:17:09,679
of the sahara or more commonly the rich

484
00:17:13,350 --> 00:17:11,039
shot structure

485
00:17:16,069 --> 00:17:13,360
first discovered in 1965 when it was

486
00:17:17,669 --> 00:17:16,079
spotted from space this large circular

487
00:17:20,789 --> 00:17:17,679
structure consists of a series of

488
00:17:22,390 --> 00:17:20,799
concentric rings at 25 miles across it

489
00:17:24,230 --> 00:17:22,400
bears what some have argued is a

490
00:17:25,750 --> 00:17:24,240
striking resemblance to the lost city of

491
00:17:27,350 --> 00:17:25,760
atlantis

492
00:17:29,350 --> 00:17:27,360
originally thought to be an impact

493
00:17:31,990 --> 00:17:29,360
crater it's now believed that it was

494
00:17:33,990 --> 00:17:32,000
created by underground volcanic activity

495
00:17:35,909 --> 00:17:34,000
that made a dome of molten rock around

496
00:17:37,909 --> 00:17:35,919
100 million years ago

497
00:17:40,150 --> 00:17:37,919
as the layers of the dome eroded over

498
00:17:42,710 --> 00:17:40,160
time at different rates it created the

499
00:17:45,029 --> 00:17:42,720
concentric circles that we see today

500
00:17:46,950 --> 00:17:45,039
but regardless of how it was created

501
00:17:49,110 --> 00:17:46,960
could this possibly be the fabled sunken

502
00:17:50,470 --> 00:17:49,120
city though there are some interesting

503
00:17:53,029 --> 00:17:50,480
similarities between the richard

504
00:17:54,470 --> 00:17:53,039
structure and atlantis i'd argue that

505
00:17:56,230 --> 00:17:54,480
there's more than enough evidence to

506
00:17:58,630 --> 00:17:56,240
debunk this idea

507
00:18:00,549 --> 00:17:58,640
first of all atlantis is described as an

508
00:18:02,950 --> 00:18:00,559
island in the atlantic lying somewhere

509
00:18:04,950 --> 00:18:02,960
just beyond the pillars of hercules

510
00:18:07,270 --> 00:18:04,960
so for the richard structure to possibly

511
00:18:09,350 --> 00:18:07,280
be atlantis the sahara would have needed

512
00:18:11,350 --> 00:18:09,360
to be underwater 10 000 years ago

513
00:18:14,070 --> 00:18:11,360
however there's simply no evidence that

514
00:18:16,230 --> 00:18:14,080
this was the case and in fact the sahara

515
00:18:18,470 --> 00:18:16,240
desert has been a desert for at least

516
00:18:20,230 --> 00:18:18,480
the last several million years so that

517
00:18:21,590 --> 00:18:20,240
alone should disqualify the richard

518
00:18:23,270 --> 00:18:21,600
structure as the possible site of

519
00:18:24,789 --> 00:18:23,280
atlantis

520
00:18:27,190 --> 00:18:24,799
there are other issues with this theory

521
00:18:28,950 --> 00:18:27,200
as well for example there appears to be

522
00:18:30,870 --> 00:18:28,960
four rings where water would have been

523
00:18:33,430 --> 00:18:30,880
as opposed to the three rings described

524
00:18:35,029 --> 00:18:33,440
in cretius and there's no evidence of a

525
00:18:37,110 --> 00:18:35,039
giant canal that would have connected

526
00:18:38,710 --> 00:18:37,120
the center of the city to the sea

527
00:18:40,549 --> 00:18:38,720
so we'll have to look for evidence of

528
00:18:41,909 --> 00:18:40,559
atlantis elsewhere

529
00:18:43,350 --> 00:18:41,919
there have been many different theories

530
00:18:45,830 --> 00:18:43,360
about where atlantis may have been

531
00:18:48,070 --> 00:18:45,840
located ranging from the black sea to

532
00:18:50,230 --> 00:18:48,080
the caribbean to the north atlantic

533
00:18:51,990 --> 00:18:50,240
however i'd argue that the most obvious

534
00:18:54,070 --> 00:18:52,000
place to look for atlantis would be

535
00:18:55,830 --> 00:18:54,080
exactly where plato says that it was

536
00:18:57,430 --> 00:18:55,840
which is just beyond what is now the

537
00:18:59,029 --> 00:18:57,440
strait of gibraltar somewhere in the

538
00:19:01,110 --> 00:18:59,039
mid-atlantic

539
00:19:03,350 --> 00:19:01,120
this description isn't ambiguous and

540
00:19:05,830 --> 00:19:03,360
it's described in detail in both timaeus

541
00:19:07,909 --> 00:19:05,840
and cretius and in timaeus we find this

542
00:19:10,390 --> 00:19:07,919
particularly interesting passage giving

543
00:19:11,270 --> 00:19:10,400
details about the location of atlantis

544
00:19:13,830 --> 00:19:11,280
quote

545
00:19:15,669 --> 00:19:13,840
for history's tell of a mighty power

546
00:19:17,669 --> 00:19:15,679
which unprovoked made an expedition

547
00:19:19,909 --> 00:19:17,679
against the whole of europe and asia

548
00:19:21,510 --> 00:19:19,919
into which your city put an end

549
00:19:23,590 --> 00:19:21,520
this power came forth out of the

550
00:19:26,150 --> 00:19:23,600
atlantic ocean for in those days the

551
00:19:28,150 --> 00:19:26,160
atlantic was navigable and there was an

552
00:19:30,630 --> 00:19:28,160
island situated in front of the straits

553
00:19:32,630 --> 00:19:30,640
which you called the pillars of hercules

554
00:19:35,029 --> 00:19:32,640
the island was larger than libya and

555
00:19:37,350 --> 00:19:35,039
asia put together and was the way to

556
00:19:39,190 --> 00:19:37,360
other islands and from these you might

557
00:19:41,590 --> 00:19:39,200
pass to the whole of the opposite

558
00:19:42,789 --> 00:19:41,600
continent which surrounded the true

559
00:19:44,950 --> 00:19:42,799
ocean

560
00:19:47,350 --> 00:19:44,960
for this sea which is within the straits

561
00:19:50,070 --> 00:19:47,360
of hercules is only a harbor having a

562
00:19:52,470 --> 00:19:50,080
narrow entrance but that other sea is a

563
00:19:55,110 --> 00:19:52,480
real sea and the surrounding land may be

564
00:19:57,590 --> 00:19:55,120
most truly called a boundless continent

565
00:19:59,830 --> 00:19:57,600
end quote and then after describing the

566
00:20:00,789 --> 00:19:59,840
details of the war it goes on to say

567
00:20:02,470 --> 00:20:00,799
quote

568
00:20:04,470 --> 00:20:02,480
but afterwards there occurred violent

569
00:20:06,630 --> 00:20:04,480
earthquakes and floods and in a single

570
00:20:08,870 --> 00:20:06,640
day and night of misfortune all your

571
00:20:11,190 --> 00:20:08,880
warlike men in a body sank into the

572
00:20:13,190 --> 00:20:11,200
earth and the island of atlantis and

573
00:20:14,149 --> 00:20:13,200
like manor disappeared in the depths of

574
00:20:18,549 --> 00:20:14,159
the sea

575
00:20:20,390 --> 00:20:18,559
is impassable and impenetrable because

576
00:20:22,549 --> 00:20:20,400
there is a shoal of mud in the way

577
00:20:25,510 --> 00:20:22,559
and this was caused by the subsidence of

578
00:20:27,350 --> 00:20:25,520
the island end quote i find this passage

579
00:20:28,390 --> 00:20:27,360
to be really interesting for a few

580
00:20:30,070 --> 00:20:28,400
reasons

581
00:20:31,830 --> 00:20:30,080
first of all the description of the

582
00:20:34,149 --> 00:20:31,840
atlantic ocean being surrounded by a

583
00:20:35,669 --> 00:20:34,159
boundless continent was surprising

584
00:20:38,470 --> 00:20:35,679
because it seems to suggest that the

585
00:20:40,070 --> 00:20:38,480
ancient greeks were aware of america

586
00:20:41,510 --> 00:20:40,080
most of us were taught in school that

587
00:20:43,430 --> 00:20:41,520
christopher columbus was the first

588
00:20:46,630 --> 00:20:43,440
european to discover what lies on the

589
00:20:48,549 --> 00:20:46,640
other side of the atlantic in 1492

590
00:20:50,470 --> 00:20:48,559
so to find a casual mention of his

591
00:20:52,390 --> 00:20:50,480
existence in this text from more than

592
00:20:53,909 --> 00:20:52,400
eighteen hundred years earlier was

593
00:20:55,830 --> 00:20:53,919
unexpected

594
00:20:57,830 --> 00:20:55,840
but then again maybe i'm just reading

595
00:20:59,510 --> 00:20:57,840
too much into this maybe my

596
00:21:01,270 --> 00:20:59,520
interpretation of the text is being

597
00:21:03,270 --> 00:21:01,280
colored by the fact that i know what

598
00:21:04,710 --> 00:21:03,280
lies on the other side of the atlantic

599
00:21:06,310 --> 00:21:04,720
and so i'm assuming that plato is

600
00:21:07,430 --> 00:21:06,320
referring to the thing that is familiar

601
00:21:08,870 --> 00:21:07,440
to me

602
00:21:10,149 --> 00:21:08,880
i recognize that's a distinct

603
00:21:11,669 --> 00:21:10,159
possibility

604
00:21:13,430 --> 00:21:11,679
after all it's not like it would be

605
00:21:14,870 --> 00:21:13,440
impossible to guess that there might be

606
00:21:17,190 --> 00:21:14,880
a continent on the other side of the

607
00:21:19,510 --> 00:21:17,200
ocean of all the possible things that

608
00:21:21,270 --> 00:21:19,520
could be over there more land is

609
00:21:23,590 --> 00:21:21,280
probably the most intuitive and logical

610
00:21:25,510 --> 00:21:23,600
guess and if the ancient greeks knew

611
00:21:26,950 --> 00:21:25,520
about the americas it feels like we

612
00:21:28,950 --> 00:21:26,960
should have more evidence than this

613
00:21:30,230 --> 00:21:28,960
casual mention in a story that may not

614
00:21:31,270 --> 00:21:30,240
even have been meant to be taken

615
00:21:33,510 --> 00:21:31,280
literally

616
00:21:35,830 --> 00:21:33,520
so does this evidence exist

617
00:21:37,990 --> 00:21:35,840
it actually does and though it's far

618
00:21:39,990 --> 00:21:38,000
from definitive it's worth mentioning

619
00:21:42,070 --> 00:21:40,000
because this evidence has a startling

620
00:21:43,830 --> 00:21:42,080
connection to the mysterious icy realm

621
00:21:45,510 --> 00:21:43,840
that got us here in the first place

622
00:21:49,669 --> 00:21:45,520
antarctica

623
00:21:50,950 --> 00:21:49,679
complete without discussing the piri

624
00:21:53,750 --> 00:21:50,960
reese map

625
00:21:56,070 --> 00:21:53,760
compiled in 1513 by the ottoman admiral

626
00:21:58,230 --> 00:21:56,080
and cartographer pierre reese the

627
00:22:00,149 --> 00:21:58,240
one-third of the map that still remains

628
00:22:02,470 --> 00:22:00,159
shows the western coasts of europe and

629
00:22:04,470 --> 00:22:02,480
north africa and the coast of brazil

630
00:22:06,390 --> 00:22:04,480
with reasonable accuracy

631
00:22:08,230 --> 00:22:06,400
various atlantic islands including the

632
00:22:09,590 --> 00:22:08,240
azores and canary islands are depicted

633
00:22:11,590 --> 00:22:09,600
as well

634
00:22:13,750 --> 00:22:11,600
having been created two decades after

635
00:22:15,510 --> 00:22:13,760
columbus first sailed to america it's

636
00:22:17,590 --> 00:22:15,520
not particularly surprising that the

637
00:22:19,029 --> 00:22:17,600
details of north america the caribbean

638
00:22:21,750 --> 00:22:19,039
and the northern portion of south

639
00:22:23,430 --> 00:22:21,760
america have a few anomalies but they

640
00:22:25,990 --> 00:22:23,440
are more or less correct

641
00:22:27,909 --> 00:22:26,000
so why do i bring this map up the piri

642
00:22:29,350 --> 00:22:27,919
reese map is significant for a couple of

643
00:22:31,350 --> 00:22:29,360
different reasons

644
00:22:33,110 --> 00:22:31,360
the first is that despite showing the

645
00:22:35,110 --> 00:22:33,120
coastlines of the other continents with

646
00:22:37,270 --> 00:22:35,120
a relatively high degree of accuracy for

647
00:22:39,350 --> 00:22:37,280
the time period there is a large and

648
00:22:40,950 --> 00:22:39,360
peculiar flaw in the map

649
00:22:43,590 --> 00:22:40,960
although the northern portion of south

650
00:22:45,669 --> 00:22:43,600
america is accurately represented the

651
00:22:48,390 --> 00:22:45,679
piri reese map shows the horn of south

652
00:22:51,270 --> 00:22:48,400
america turning sharply eastwards almost

653
00:22:53,029 --> 00:22:51,280
at a 90 degree angle as if south america

654
00:22:56,310 --> 00:22:53,039
wraps around the atlantic at the bottom

655
00:22:57,350 --> 00:22:56,320
of the map so that is definitely weird

656
00:22:58,549 --> 00:22:57,360
but what does that have to do with

657
00:23:01,190 --> 00:22:58,559
antarctica

658
00:23:02,950 --> 00:23:01,200
arlington h mallory a civil engineer and

659
00:23:04,630 --> 00:23:02,960
amateur archaeologist who was a

660
00:23:07,510 --> 00:23:04,640
supporter of a pre-columbian

661
00:23:08,950 --> 00:23:07,520
transoceanic contact hypothesis was the

662
00:23:10,710 --> 00:23:08,960
first to notice the striking

663
00:23:12,870 --> 00:23:10,720
similarities between this puzzling

664
00:23:14,549 --> 00:23:12,880
section of the map and the queen modland

665
00:23:17,190 --> 00:23:14,559
coast of antarctica

666
00:23:18,870 --> 00:23:17,200
and they do indeed look very similar

667
00:23:21,029 --> 00:23:18,880
except that instead of being covered in

668
00:23:22,870 --> 00:23:21,039
ice the map suggests a much more

669
00:23:25,350 --> 00:23:22,880
temperate climate with flowing rivers

670
00:23:27,510 --> 00:23:25,360
and forests although mallory's ideas

671
00:23:29,350 --> 00:23:27,520
were not well received they were given

672
00:23:31,669 --> 00:23:29,360
new life by our old friend charles

673
00:23:34,950 --> 00:23:31,679
hapgood the author of earth's shift in

674
00:23:36,789 --> 00:23:34,960
crust in his 1966 book maps of the

675
00:23:39,029 --> 00:23:36,799
ancient sea kings

676
00:23:41,590 --> 00:23:39,039
based on his analysis of this and other

677
00:23:43,909 --> 00:23:41,600
ancient and late medieval maps his book

678
00:23:45,909 --> 00:23:43,919
proposed a theory of global exploration

679
00:23:48,070 --> 00:23:45,919
by a pre-classical undiscovered

680
00:23:50,149 --> 00:23:48,080
civilization

681
00:23:52,310 --> 00:23:50,159
even more controversially these claims

682
00:23:54,789 --> 00:23:52,320
were repeated in eric von danican's

683
00:23:57,430 --> 00:23:54,799
chariots of the gods a classic in the

684
00:23:59,830 --> 00:23:57,440
genre of ancient astronaut theory and

685
00:24:01,990 --> 00:23:59,840
unsurprisingly vondanakan attributed the

686
00:24:02,830 --> 00:24:02,000
seeming knowledge of the antarctic coast

687
00:24:07,830 --> 00:24:02,840
to

688
00:24:09,590 --> 00:24:07,840
in just a minute

689
00:24:11,750 --> 00:24:09,600
but the other reason that the perireus

690
00:24:13,590 --> 00:24:11,760
map is notable is because of claims that

691
00:24:15,830 --> 00:24:13,600
it was compiled using sources dating

692
00:24:17,350 --> 00:24:15,840
back to the 4th century bc

693
00:24:19,750 --> 00:24:17,360
right around the same time that plato

694
00:24:21,590 --> 00:24:19,760
was writing his dialogues the argument

695
00:24:23,669 --> 00:24:21,600
is basically that although the map was

696
00:24:25,830 --> 00:24:23,679
compiled 20 years after columbus sailed

697
00:24:27,590 --> 00:24:25,840
to america that really wasn't enough

698
00:24:29,350 --> 00:24:27,600
time for the coastline of the americas

699
00:24:31,590 --> 00:24:29,360
to be recorded as accurately as they

700
00:24:33,830 --> 00:24:31,600
were with the technology of the time

701
00:24:35,990 --> 00:24:33,840
therefore the accuracy of the map must

702
00:24:38,710 --> 00:24:36,000
be due to other much older sources that

703
00:24:40,470 --> 00:24:38,720
were also consulted and therefore there

704
00:24:42,470 --> 00:24:40,480
must have been ancient seafaring

705
00:24:43,909 --> 00:24:42,480
civilizations who had already discovered

706
00:24:45,669 --> 00:24:43,919
these lands

707
00:24:48,390 --> 00:24:45,679
so could it be that the ancient greeks

708
00:24:50,470 --> 00:24:48,400
really did know about the americas and

709
00:24:51,830 --> 00:24:50,480
had they perhaps even ventured as far as

710
00:24:53,669 --> 00:24:51,840
antarctica

711
00:24:56,149 --> 00:24:53,679
or could those maps from the 4th century

712
00:24:58,390 --> 00:24:56,159
bc have been based on even older maps

713
00:25:00,870 --> 00:24:58,400
from an even more remote past

714
00:25:03,110 --> 00:25:00,880
it's certainly interesting to consider

715
00:25:05,750 --> 00:25:03,120
however the whole thing hinges on the

716
00:25:07,590 --> 00:25:05,760
idea that piri reese consulted maps from

717
00:25:09,190 --> 00:25:07,600
the 4th century bc

718
00:25:11,190 --> 00:25:09,200
and i had a very hard time finding

719
00:25:13,190 --> 00:25:11,200
anything beyond anecdotal evidence to

720
00:25:15,430 --> 00:25:13,200
back that up as none of the original

721
00:25:17,110 --> 00:25:15,440
source maps still remain and the claim

722
00:25:19,510 --> 00:25:17,120
that these maps came from the famed

723
00:25:21,510 --> 00:25:19,520
library of alexandria which would lend

724
00:25:23,830 --> 00:25:21,520
some credence to their antiquity has

725
00:25:25,830 --> 00:25:23,840
been called into question by scholars

726
00:25:27,909 --> 00:25:25,840
some have made the case that peery reese

727
00:25:30,310 --> 00:25:27,919
made the common mistake of confusing

728
00:25:32,310 --> 00:25:30,320
ptolemy the first who ruled alexandria

729
00:25:34,070 --> 00:25:32,320
in the fourth century bc

730
00:25:35,990 --> 00:25:34,080
and claudius ptolemy the greek

731
00:25:38,710 --> 00:25:36,000
geographer and cartographer who lived in

732
00:25:41,190 --> 00:25:38,720
alexandria during the second century a.d

733
00:25:42,630 --> 00:25:41,200
i mean who hasn't made that mistake

734
00:25:44,470 --> 00:25:42,640
and this would mean that the original

735
00:25:47,269 --> 00:25:44,480
maps would have been made at least six

736
00:25:49,269 --> 00:25:47,279
centuries later than initially claimed

737
00:25:51,430 --> 00:25:49,279
and further doubt was cast on the fourth

738
00:25:53,590 --> 00:25:51,440
century origins of the peery race source

739
00:25:56,390 --> 00:25:53,600
maps in an analysis done by gregory

740
00:25:58,390 --> 00:25:56,400
macintosh a historian of cartography

741
00:26:01,430 --> 00:25:58,400
who examined the map in depth in his

742
00:26:03,669 --> 00:26:01,440
book the p re-reese map of 1513.

743
00:26:05,430 --> 00:26:03,679
in it macintosh outlined how he was able

744
00:26:07,909 --> 00:26:05,440
to find sources for much of the map in

745
00:26:10,390 --> 00:26:07,919
columbus's detailed writings making the

746
00:26:12,789 --> 00:26:10,400
inclusion of ancient more accurate maps

747
00:26:15,590 --> 00:26:12,799
unnecessary to explain the piri reese

748
00:26:18,070 --> 00:26:15,600
map's accuracy so while the piri reese

749
00:26:19,830 --> 00:26:18,080
map is extremely interesting i don't

750
00:26:21,510 --> 00:26:19,840
personally think that it rises to the

751
00:26:23,909 --> 00:26:21,520
level of definitive proof that the

752
00:26:25,909 --> 00:26:23,919
ancient greeks knew about the americas

753
00:26:27,830 --> 00:26:25,919
or of anything else really

754
00:26:30,070 --> 00:26:27,840
so going back to that passage in temaeus

755
00:26:31,669 --> 00:26:30,080
about the location of atlantis there was

756
00:26:34,390 --> 00:26:31,679
something else there that struck me as

757
00:26:36,630 --> 00:26:34,400
being particularly interesting the idea

758
00:26:38,470 --> 00:26:36,640
that after atlantis sank the waters that

759
00:26:40,310 --> 00:26:38,480
covered it were still shallow enough to

760
00:26:42,870 --> 00:26:40,320
make a large region of the atlantic

761
00:26:44,950 --> 00:26:42,880
ocean muddy and unnavigable

762
00:26:46,710 --> 00:26:44,960
this fact is mentioned very casually

763
00:26:48,310 --> 00:26:46,720
within this passage which is meant to

764
00:26:50,789 --> 00:26:48,320
explain the reason for something that

765
00:26:52,630 --> 00:26:50,799
seems to be common knowledge and if the

766
00:26:54,390 --> 00:26:52,640
fact that the atlantic was unnavigable

767
00:26:55,830 --> 00:26:54,400
because of a giant muddy shoal was

768
00:26:58,230 --> 00:26:55,840
common knowledge to plato and his

769
00:27:00,310 --> 00:26:58,240
contemporaries we should be able to find

770
00:27:02,390 --> 00:27:00,320
evidence for that right and if we had

771
00:27:04,630 --> 00:27:02,400
that it might not be definitive proof of

772
00:27:06,710 --> 00:27:04,640
the existence of atlantis but it would

773
00:27:08,549 --> 00:27:06,720
at least give us some idea of where that

774
00:27:10,789 --> 00:27:08,559
myth may have come from

775
00:27:12,070 --> 00:27:10,799
however i was unable to find anything

776
00:27:13,430 --> 00:27:12,080
that would confirm that this was

777
00:27:15,029 --> 00:27:13,440
actually the case

778
00:27:16,470 --> 00:27:15,039
if this was in fact something that was

779
00:27:18,230 --> 00:27:16,480
common knowledge among the ancient

780
00:27:19,590 --> 00:27:18,240
greeks it appears to have been lost to

781
00:27:21,350 --> 00:27:19,600
the sands of time

782
00:27:23,190 --> 00:27:21,360
although there is some evidence that

783
00:27:24,950 --> 00:27:23,200
this muddy shoal in the atlantic could

784
00:27:26,789 --> 00:27:24,960
have once existed

785
00:27:28,549 --> 00:27:26,799
according to christopher columbus's own

786
00:27:30,789 --> 00:27:28,559
accounts when his ships reached the

787
00:27:32,630 --> 00:27:30,799
middle of the atlantic ocean he and his

788
00:27:35,269 --> 00:27:32,640
men were surprised to find themselves

789
00:27:38,070 --> 00:27:35,279
almost impossibly tangled in seaweed and

790
00:27:39,909 --> 00:27:38,080
floating algae the vegetation was so

791
00:27:41,590 --> 00:27:39,919
dense that they had assumed that they

792
00:27:43,269 --> 00:27:41,600
must be close to shore

793
00:27:45,269 --> 00:27:43,279
it took them a week to finally break

794
00:27:47,510 --> 00:27:45,279
through to the other side and when they

795
00:27:49,350 --> 00:27:47,520
did they were surprised to find only

796
00:27:51,190 --> 00:27:49,360
more open ocean

797
00:27:53,110 --> 00:27:51,200
could this strange account of shallow

798
00:27:54,870 --> 00:27:53,120
waters in the middle of the atlantic be

799
00:27:57,750 --> 00:27:54,880
describing the last remnants of the

800
00:27:59,350 --> 00:27:57,760
muddy shoal referred to by plato

801
00:28:01,510 --> 00:27:59,360
some have argued that what columbus and

802
00:28:03,350 --> 00:28:01,520
his men ran into was what we now call

803
00:28:07,029 --> 00:28:03,360
the sargasso sea

804
00:28:09,510 --> 00:28:07,039
atlantic ocean and similar to the

805
00:28:11,669 --> 00:28:09,520
southern ocean it is surrounded by water

806
00:28:13,510 --> 00:28:11,679
on all sides

807
00:28:15,750 --> 00:28:13,520
but whereas the southern ocean is

808
00:28:17,830 --> 00:28:15,760
bordered on all sides by other oceans

809
00:28:20,470 --> 00:28:17,840
the boundaries of the sargasso sea are

810
00:28:22,070 --> 00:28:20,480
formed by four currents in the atlantic

811
00:28:24,310 --> 00:28:22,080
the reason that people believe that this

812
00:28:26,310 --> 00:28:24,320
is what columbus's ship encountered is

813
00:28:28,789 --> 00:28:26,320
that this is a region that is known for

814
00:28:31,110 --> 00:28:28,799
having a lot of seaweed and calm waters

815
00:28:33,029 --> 00:28:31,120
and this could be the case though

816
00:28:35,110 --> 00:28:33,039
generally the seaweed in this area isn't

817
00:28:37,190 --> 00:28:35,120
known to be so dense as to tangle up a

818
00:28:40,549 --> 00:28:37,200
ship but who knows what it was like in

819
00:28:41,750 --> 00:28:40,559
1492 so that's one possibility

820
00:28:43,269 --> 00:28:41,760
but could there really have been a

821
00:28:45,830 --> 00:28:43,279
shallow spot in the middle of the

822
00:28:47,029 --> 00:28:45,840
atlantic in the time of plato one that

823
00:28:49,110 --> 00:28:47,039
could have made the waters of the

824
00:28:51,110 --> 00:28:49,120
atlantic ocean unnavigable to ships

825
00:28:53,510 --> 00:28:51,120
coming from the mediterranean

826
00:28:55,830 --> 00:28:53,520
it's impossible to know for sure but if

827
00:28:58,549 --> 00:28:55,840
there were there should still be some

828
00:29:00,710 --> 00:28:58,559
evidence of it under the water right and

829
00:29:03,029 --> 00:29:00,720
i'd argue that the best candidate for

830
00:29:04,630 --> 00:29:03,039
this if it is in fact the case is the

831
00:29:06,549 --> 00:29:04,640
mid-atlantic ridge

832
00:29:08,710 --> 00:29:06,559
one to two miles below the waters of the

833
00:29:11,029 --> 00:29:08,720
atlantic and running lengthwise north to

834
00:29:12,630 --> 00:29:11,039
south down its center is the longest

835
00:29:14,310 --> 00:29:12,640
mountain range in the world the

836
00:29:16,310 --> 00:29:14,320
mid-atlantic ridge

837
00:29:18,630 --> 00:29:16,320
these massive mountains are the place

838
00:29:20,549 --> 00:29:18,640
where tectonic plates come together in

839
00:29:23,190 --> 00:29:20,559
the south atlantic it separates the

840
00:29:25,430 --> 00:29:23,200
african and south american plates and in

841
00:29:27,669 --> 00:29:25,440
the north atlantic almost precisely due

842
00:29:30,070 --> 00:29:27,679
west from the strait of gibraltar is a

843
00:29:32,230 --> 00:29:30,080
massive elevated area called the azores

844
00:29:34,389 --> 00:29:32,240
triple junction where the boundaries of

845
00:29:36,630 --> 00:29:34,399
three tectonic plates intersect the

846
00:29:38,230 --> 00:29:36,640
north american plate the eurasian plate

847
00:29:40,230 --> 00:29:38,240
and the african plate

848
00:29:42,549 --> 00:29:40,240
and right at this junction there is an

849
00:29:43,990 --> 00:29:42,559
archipelago of nine islands called the

850
00:29:46,230 --> 00:29:44,000
azores

851
00:29:47,750 --> 00:29:46,240
to me this area is by far the most

852
00:29:49,909 --> 00:29:47,760
likely location for the mythical

853
00:29:51,909 --> 00:29:49,919
atlantis if it did exist

854
00:29:53,990 --> 00:29:51,919
it's exactly in the right spot that if

855
00:29:56,470 --> 00:29:54,000
this region had been much closer to the

856
00:29:58,470 --> 00:29:56,480
surface of the ocean in the distant past

857
00:30:00,630 --> 00:29:58,480
it would have made much of the atlantic

858
00:30:02,070 --> 00:30:00,640
inaccessible to any ships coming from

859
00:30:03,750 --> 00:30:02,080
the mediterranean

860
00:30:05,669 --> 00:30:03,760
and considering that the places where

861
00:30:07,669 --> 00:30:05,679
tectonic plates come together are some

862
00:30:10,230 --> 00:30:07,679
of the most geologically active places

863
00:30:12,149 --> 00:30:10,240
in the world it's not unthinkable that

864
00:30:14,549 --> 00:30:12,159
this part of the mid-atlantic ridge

865
00:30:16,789 --> 00:30:14,559
could have been at one time above sea

866
00:30:18,549 --> 00:30:16,799
level and that something very much like

867
00:30:20,549 --> 00:30:18,559
an earthquake described in plato's

868
00:30:22,710 --> 00:30:20,559
dialogues could have plunged this entire

869
00:30:24,310 --> 00:30:22,720
region into the sea i'll link to the

870
00:30:26,070 --> 00:30:24,320
coordinates on google earth in the

871
00:30:27,190 --> 00:30:26,080
episode brief so that you can look at it

872
00:30:28,470 --> 00:30:27,200
for yourself and draw your own

873
00:30:30,470 --> 00:30:28,480
conclusions

874
00:30:32,789 --> 00:30:30,480
and this brings us back to our original

875
00:30:33,669 --> 00:30:32,799
question that got us here is atlantis

876
00:30:35,590 --> 00:30:33,679
real

877
00:30:37,190 --> 00:30:35,600
and i gotta tell you when i started down

878
00:30:38,870 --> 00:30:37,200
this rabbit hole i didn't think that

879
00:30:40,149 --> 00:30:38,880
there was any way in hell that i was

880
00:30:42,470 --> 00:30:40,159
going to answer that question in the

881
00:30:44,630 --> 00:30:42,480
affirmative i mean everyone knows that

882
00:30:46,630 --> 00:30:44,640
atlantis is just a myth and a silly one

883
00:30:48,549 --> 00:30:46,640
at that but having looked at the

884
00:30:50,070 --> 00:30:48,559
evidence it suddenly doesn't seem so

885
00:30:52,549 --> 00:30:50,080
far-fetched to think that the story of

886
00:30:54,389 --> 00:30:52,559
atlantis might point to real events i

887
00:30:57,190 --> 00:30:54,399
don't know about poseidon or the ranked

888
00:30:59,029 --> 00:30:57,200
city or its temples with gold walls but

889
00:31:01,029 --> 00:30:59,039
it seems reasonable to believe that

890
00:31:03,190 --> 00:31:01,039
there could have been more of what is

891
00:31:04,389 --> 00:31:03,200
now the azores above the water in the

892
00:31:06,470 --> 00:31:04,399
distant past

893
00:31:09,029 --> 00:31:06,480
and if that region was plunged into the

894
00:31:10,630 --> 00:31:09,039
ocean by the shifting of tectonic plates

895
00:31:12,870 --> 00:31:10,640
whether in a single day and night as

896
00:31:14,389 --> 00:31:12,880
described in plato or over a longer

897
00:31:15,990 --> 00:31:14,399
period of time

898
00:31:18,389 --> 00:31:16,000
that is something that likely would have

899
00:31:20,230 --> 00:31:18,399
been remembered in our myths and if

900
00:31:22,389 --> 00:31:20,240
there were pockets of high civilization

901
00:31:24,630 --> 00:31:22,399
before the last ice age as the evidence

902
00:31:26,950 --> 00:31:24,640
increasingly suggests perhaps the

903
00:31:28,470 --> 00:31:26,960
atlanteans were one of them to say that

904
00:31:30,789 --> 00:31:28,480
i believe in atlantis would be too

905
00:31:33,029 --> 00:31:30,799
strong of a word but i no longer think

906
00:31:34,710 --> 00:31:33,039
it's crazy and there's more than one

907
00:31:37,110 --> 00:31:34,720
piece of evidence that points to the

908
00:31:39,110 --> 00:31:37,120
possibility that atlantis once existed

909
00:31:42,149 --> 00:31:39,120
in what is now the azores

910
00:31:44,630 --> 00:31:42,159
in 2013 a sailor using a bathymetric

911
00:31:46,710 --> 00:31:44,640
navigation system which shows the depth

912
00:31:49,110 --> 00:31:46,720
of subsurface objects while fishing on

913
00:31:51,669 --> 00:31:49,120
his yacht discovered a perfect

914
00:31:53,830 --> 00:31:51,679
four-sided pyramid under the water

915
00:31:57,110 --> 00:31:53,840
between the islands of sao miguel and

916
00:31:59,509 --> 00:31:57,120
trisera in the azores the pyramid is 40

917
00:32:00,870 --> 00:31:59,519
meters deep and has a base larger than a

918
00:32:03,830 --> 00:32:00,880
football field

919
00:32:06,230 --> 00:32:03,840
and strikingly it is oriented exactly to

920
00:32:08,149 --> 00:32:06,240
the cardinal directions north and south

921
00:32:10,389 --> 00:32:08,159
just like the pyramids at giza and

922
00:32:12,230 --> 00:32:10,399
elsewhere around the world i'll link to

923
00:32:13,590 --> 00:32:12,240
images and news footage in the episode

924
00:32:14,389 --> 00:32:13,600
brief so you can check it out for

925
00:32:16,870 --> 00:32:14,399
yourself

926
00:32:19,350 --> 00:32:16,880
however as stunning as this discovery

927
00:32:21,269 --> 00:32:19,360
was it quickly fell out of the news and

928
00:32:22,950 --> 00:32:21,279
there has been seemingly very little

929
00:32:25,430 --> 00:32:22,960
interest from the portuguese government

930
00:32:26,789 --> 00:32:25,440
in investigating this pyramid further

931
00:32:28,630 --> 00:32:26,799
much like the pyramid and other

932
00:32:31,269 --> 00:32:28,640
structures found off the western tip of

933
00:32:33,350 --> 00:32:31,279
cuba that we discussed in episode 9

934
00:32:35,350 --> 00:32:33,360
mainstream scientists and academics have

935
00:32:38,070 --> 00:32:35,360
largely dismissed the possibility that

936
00:32:39,669 --> 00:32:38,080
the pyramid could have been man-made

937
00:32:41,669 --> 00:32:39,679
their reasoning

938
00:32:43,750 --> 00:32:41,679
the last time the area where the pyramid

939
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:43,760
was found was above sea level

940
00:32:49,050 --> 00:34:10,550
[Music]

941
00:34:14,310 --> 00:34:12,550
so we've more or less come to an answer

942
00:34:15,510 --> 00:34:14,320
about whether or not atlantis could have

943
00:34:17,669 --> 00:34:15,520
been real

944
00:34:19,669 --> 00:34:17,679
but in doing so we've seemingly also

945
00:34:21,190 --> 00:34:19,679
answered our next question could

946
00:34:22,310 --> 00:34:21,200
atlantis actually have been in

947
00:34:24,149 --> 00:34:22,320
antarctica

948
00:34:26,389 --> 00:34:24,159
and having looked at the evidence the

949
00:34:28,230 --> 00:34:26,399
answer is pretty clearly no

950
00:34:30,149 --> 00:34:28,240
it just doesn't make sense for a lot of

951
00:34:31,589 --> 00:34:30,159
reasons not the least of which is that

952
00:34:33,669 --> 00:34:31,599
it's nowhere near the place where

953
00:34:35,349 --> 00:34:33,679
atlantis was said to have been

954
00:34:37,510 --> 00:34:35,359
add to that the fact that most of

955
00:34:40,149 --> 00:34:37,520
antarctica is covered by a layer of ice

956
00:34:43,190 --> 00:34:40,159
up to three miles deep and that it has

957
00:34:45,430 --> 00:34:43,200
been so for almost 100 million years and

958
00:34:47,190 --> 00:34:45,440
you might be wondering why anyone would

959
00:34:49,589 --> 00:34:47,200
have ever thought that antarctica could

960
00:34:51,109 --> 00:34:49,599
be atlantis in the first place

961
00:34:53,430 --> 00:34:51,119
the arguments for the idea that

962
00:34:55,430 --> 00:34:53,440
antarctica is actually atlantis are

963
00:34:58,310 --> 00:34:55,440
primarily based on two things with which

964
00:35:00,470 --> 00:34:58,320
we are already familiar the pirirhis map

965
00:35:03,109 --> 00:35:00,480
and the work of charles hapgood

966
00:35:05,349 --> 00:35:03,119
as we discussed the piri race map shows

967
00:35:08,069 --> 00:35:05,359
a land mass that extends off the horn of

968
00:35:10,470 --> 00:35:08,079
south america at an almost 90 degree

969
00:35:12,470 --> 00:35:10,480
angle and this land mass bears a

970
00:35:13,750 --> 00:35:12,480
striking resemblance to the coastline of

971
00:35:16,069 --> 00:35:13,760
antarctica

972
00:35:17,990 --> 00:35:16,079
and to be clear i do think that's

973
00:35:20,310 --> 00:35:18,000
significant even if we don't know

974
00:35:21,829 --> 00:35:20,320
exactly what it signifies

975
00:35:23,910 --> 00:35:21,839
according to our current understanding

976
00:35:25,670 --> 00:35:23,920
of history antarctica wasn't discovered

977
00:35:27,430 --> 00:35:25,680
until 1819

978
00:35:29,349 --> 00:35:27,440
so finding something that looks so much

979
00:35:31,349 --> 00:35:29,359
like the coastline of antarctica and a

980
00:35:33,430 --> 00:35:31,359
map from 300 years earlier is

981
00:35:34,870 --> 00:35:33,440
interesting even if it's in completely

982
00:35:36,790 --> 00:35:34,880
the wrong place

983
00:35:38,950 --> 00:35:36,800
at the very least it suggests that we're

984
00:35:41,349 --> 00:35:38,960
missing a piece of the puzzle somewhere

985
00:35:44,069 --> 00:35:41,359
however some have taken the piri reese

986
00:35:46,069 --> 00:35:44,079
map as proof not only that antarctica

987
00:35:48,069 --> 00:35:46,079
was known to humans much earlier than we

988
00:35:50,550 --> 00:35:48,079
previously thought but that it was

989
00:35:52,390 --> 00:35:50,560
actually once located much farther north

990
00:35:54,710 --> 00:35:52,400
near the equator between south america

991
00:35:56,630 --> 00:35:54,720
and africa and the fact that the map

992
00:35:58,550 --> 00:35:56,640
shows it as a land with rivers and other

993
00:36:01,190 --> 00:35:58,560
suggestions of a much more temperate

994
00:36:03,270 --> 00:36:01,200
climate is used as further evidence that

995
00:36:04,870 --> 00:36:03,280
antarctica must have once been much

996
00:36:06,310 --> 00:36:04,880
further north

997
00:36:07,829 --> 00:36:06,320
and that's where the work of charles

998
00:36:09,910 --> 00:36:07,839
hapgood comes in

999
00:36:12,069 --> 00:36:09,920
you'll recall that hackgood proposed in

1000
00:36:14,069 --> 00:36:12,079
his book earthshifting crust that the

1001
00:36:16,069 --> 00:36:14,079
crust of the earth can slip dramatically

1002
00:36:17,829 --> 00:36:16,079
on the mantle almost like the peel of an

1003
00:36:19,270 --> 00:36:17,839
orange if it could move independently of

1004
00:36:21,349 --> 00:36:19,280
the fruit inside

1005
00:36:23,190 --> 00:36:21,359
and so the argument is basically that

1006
00:36:25,750 --> 00:36:23,200
due to a dramatic shift in the earth's

1007
00:36:28,069 --> 00:36:25,760
crust what is now antarctica was

1008
00:36:30,230 --> 00:36:28,079
relocated to the south pole and the

1009
00:36:32,470 --> 00:36:30,240
stories of atlanta's sinking were just a

1010
00:36:35,030 --> 00:36:32,480
misunderstanding of events it didn't

1011
00:36:37,750 --> 00:36:35,040
disappear under the waves but rather it

1012
00:36:39,349 --> 00:36:37,760
was yanked thousands of miles south

1013
00:36:41,510 --> 00:36:39,359
but there are a couple of reasons why i

1014
00:36:43,349 --> 00:36:41,520
think this theory is untenable

1015
00:36:45,270 --> 00:36:43,359
the first which i've already mentioned

1016
00:36:47,270 --> 00:36:45,280
is that antarctica has been buried under

1017
00:36:49,829 --> 00:36:47,280
miles of ice for almost 100 million

1018
00:36:51,910 --> 00:36:49,839
years or 35 million years before the

1019
00:36:53,750 --> 00:36:51,920
extinction of the dinosaurs

1020
00:36:55,829 --> 00:36:53,760
scientists are able to date the ice by

1021
00:36:57,190 --> 00:36:55,839
taking core samples so the timing on

1022
00:36:59,109 --> 00:36:57,200
that is something that we're actually

1023
00:37:01,030 --> 00:36:59,119
pretty sure about and although

1024
00:37:03,430 --> 00:37:01,040
scientists do believe that the climate

1025
00:37:05,829 --> 00:37:03,440
in antarctica was once as warm as italy

1026
00:37:07,750 --> 00:37:05,839
and was covered in a rich rainforest it

1027
00:37:10,790 --> 00:37:07,760
was so long ago as to be utterly

1028
00:37:12,230 --> 00:37:10,800
irrelevant to any discussion of atlantis

1029
00:37:14,310 --> 00:37:12,240
the second reason that i don't think

1030
00:37:16,069 --> 00:37:14,320
antarctica could be atlantis can be

1031
00:37:17,030 --> 00:37:16,079
found by looking at the mid-atlantic

1032
00:37:19,109 --> 00:37:17,040
ridge

1033
00:37:21,270 --> 00:37:19,119
the coastlines of south america and

1034
00:37:22,870 --> 00:37:21,280
africa are interesting because of the

1035
00:37:24,710 --> 00:37:22,880
fact that there is almost nowhere else

1036
00:37:26,710 --> 00:37:24,720
on earth where the effects of plate

1037
00:37:28,710 --> 00:37:26,720
tectonics are more obvious

1038
00:37:30,950 --> 00:37:28,720
even before elementary school students

1039
00:37:33,109 --> 00:37:30,960
learn about plate tectonics it's not

1040
00:37:34,550 --> 00:37:33,119
unusual for them to notice after years

1041
00:37:36,710 --> 00:37:34,560
of staring at the world map on their

1042
00:37:38,790 --> 00:37:36,720
classroom wall that the coastlines of

1043
00:37:41,109 --> 00:37:38,800
these two continents fit together almost

1044
00:37:43,349 --> 00:37:41,119
like puzzle pieces despite the fact that

1045
00:37:44,310 --> 00:37:43,359
they are separated by 5 000 miles of

1046
00:37:46,150 --> 00:37:44,320
ocean

1047
00:37:47,670 --> 00:37:46,160
so whatever else may or may not have

1048
00:37:50,390 --> 00:37:47,680
happened to the earth's crust in the

1049
00:37:52,950 --> 00:37:50,400
past it seems pretty safe to say that

1050
00:37:55,430 --> 00:37:52,960
south america and africa haven't moved

1051
00:37:57,510 --> 00:37:55,440
relative to each other for a land mass

1052
00:37:59,190 --> 00:37:57,520
that was located between south america

1053
00:38:02,069 --> 00:37:59,200
and africa to have been shifted

1054
00:38:03,910 --> 00:38:02,079
approximately 6 000 miles south while

1055
00:38:05,990 --> 00:38:03,920
the continents on either side stayed in

1056
00:38:07,910 --> 00:38:06,000
the same place relative to each other

1057
00:38:09,430 --> 00:38:07,920
would require something entirely

1058
00:38:11,750 --> 00:38:09,440
different than the orange peel type

1059
00:38:13,510 --> 00:38:11,760
movement described by hapgood it would

1060
00:38:16,150 --> 00:38:13,520
mean that the earth's crust was capable

1061
00:38:18,150 --> 00:38:16,160
of moving more like a rubik's cube where

1062
00:38:21,109 --> 00:38:18,160
you can rotate the center section while

1063
00:38:23,270 --> 00:38:21,119
the two side sections stay stationary

1064
00:38:25,109 --> 00:38:23,280
that doesn't just sound unlikely but it

1065
00:38:26,870 --> 00:38:25,119
looks unlikely as well

1066
00:38:28,870 --> 00:38:26,880
if you look at the mid-atlantic ridge on

1067
00:38:30,870 --> 00:38:28,880
google earth you can clearly see these

1068
00:38:32,470 --> 00:38:30,880
two continental plates perfectly butting

1069
00:38:34,870 --> 00:38:32,480
up against each other to form the

1070
00:38:36,950 --> 00:38:34,880
towering underwater mountain range

1071
00:38:38,630 --> 00:38:36,960
it's hard to imagine that an entire

1072
00:38:41,270 --> 00:38:38,640
other continent could have been

1073
00:38:43,750 --> 00:38:41,280
positioned between these plates just 10

1074
00:38:45,670 --> 00:38:43,760
to 20 000 years ago and that we wouldn't

1075
00:38:47,430 --> 00:38:45,680
be able to see evidence of that massive

1076
00:38:50,150 --> 00:38:47,440
shift on the ocean floor

1077
00:38:51,750 --> 00:38:50,160
but that evidence simply isn't there

1078
00:38:53,670 --> 00:38:51,760
and we could say the same for much of

1079
00:38:55,430 --> 00:38:53,680
the evidence of atlantis

1080
00:38:57,670 --> 00:38:55,440
it simply isn't there

1081
00:38:59,030 --> 00:38:57,680
so why does humanity keep coming back to

1082
00:39:01,589 --> 00:38:59,040
this story

1083
00:39:03,589 --> 00:39:01,599
why does this myth speak to us

1084
00:39:05,910 --> 00:39:03,599
they say that absence of evidence isn't

1085
00:39:09,030 --> 00:39:05,920
evidence of absence but in the case of

1086
00:39:10,870 --> 00:39:09,040
atlantis the evidence is in the absence

1087
00:39:13,430 --> 00:39:10,880
atlantis exists in the holes in our

1088
00:39:15,510 --> 00:39:13,440
narratives and the gaps in our history

1089
00:39:17,190 --> 00:39:15,520
atlantis is the negative space that we

1090
00:39:18,230 --> 00:39:17,200
fill with our imagination and our

1091
00:39:20,470 --> 00:39:18,240
longing

1092
00:39:22,950 --> 00:39:20,480
it exists in the place where god stops

1093
00:39:25,109 --> 00:39:22,960
talking mid-sentence

1094
00:39:27,349 --> 00:39:25,119
and while the story of atlantis as told

1095
00:39:29,109 --> 00:39:27,359
in plato's dialogues is largely

1096
00:39:30,950 --> 00:39:29,119
considered to be an allegory and a

1097
00:39:34,390 --> 00:39:30,960
cautionary tale warning against the

1098
00:39:36,310 --> 00:39:34,400
dangers of materialism greed and hubris

1099
00:39:39,750 --> 00:39:36,320
i'd argue that there's another deeper

1100
00:39:41,910 --> 00:39:39,760
and more poignant warning there as well

1101
00:39:44,230 --> 00:39:41,920
a warning that despite all of our

1102
00:39:46,950 --> 00:39:44,240
scientific mastery we are still like

1103
00:39:48,710 --> 00:39:46,960
children in the world with much to learn

1104
00:39:49,829 --> 00:39:48,720
it's a warning against the dangers of

1105
00:39:53,270 --> 00:39:49,839
forgetting

1106
00:39:55,349 --> 00:39:53,280
not just our history but ourselves

1107
00:39:57,670 --> 00:39:55,359
that even the mightiest civilizations

1108
00:40:00,069 --> 00:39:57,680
are delicate and contingent things that

1109
00:40:02,630 --> 00:40:00,079
can easily slip beneath the waves and be

1110
00:40:03,589 --> 00:40:02,640
swallowed by the unfathomable depths of

1111
00:40:05,829 --> 00:40:03,599
time

1112
00:40:07,030 --> 00:40:05,839
and that though we know not the day nor

1113
00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:07,040
the hour

1114
00:41:01,349 --> 00:40:32,500
[Music]

1115
00:41:01,359 --> 00:41:04,980
so

1116
00:41:57,250 --> 00:41:51,990
[Music]

1117
00:42:10,910 --> 00:41:57,260
so

1118
00:42:39,829 --> 00:42:24,810
[Music]

1119
00:42:42,230 --> 00:42:39,839
while it seems pretty clear that

1120
00:42:43,990 --> 00:42:42,240
antarctica is not atlantis

1121
00:42:46,230 --> 00:42:44,000
some claim that there is evidence that

1122
00:42:48,470 --> 00:42:46,240
antarctica was once the home of an even

1123
00:42:52,790 --> 00:42:48,480
more ancient civilization from a much

1124
00:42:54,550 --> 00:42:52,800
more remote chapter of the distant past

1125
00:42:56,790 --> 00:42:54,560
located on the western side of the

1126
00:42:59,510 --> 00:42:56,800
coatlets glacier in antarctica there is

1127
00:43:01,190 --> 00:42:59,520
a near perfect stone pyramid

1128
00:43:03,510 --> 00:43:01,200
mainstream scientists will tell you that

1129
00:43:05,430 --> 00:43:03,520
this pyramid is just an unusually shaped

1130
00:43:07,510 --> 00:43:05,440
mountain and that its pyramidal

1131
00:43:09,510 --> 00:43:07,520
appearance is the result of natural

1132
00:43:13,430 --> 00:43:09,520
freeze-thaw erosion

1133
00:43:14,630 --> 00:43:13,440
water fills up cracks within a mountain

1134
00:43:16,550 --> 00:43:14,640
during the day

1135
00:43:18,550 --> 00:43:16,560
when night falls and temperatures drop

1136
00:43:19,670 --> 00:43:18,560
the snow freezes and expands turning

1137
00:43:21,670 --> 00:43:19,680
into ice

1138
00:43:22,630 --> 00:43:21,680
the expanding ice causes the cracks to

1139
00:43:24,710 --> 00:43:22,640
grow

1140
00:43:26,630 --> 00:43:24,720
after this happens countless times the

1141
00:43:28,550 --> 00:43:26,640
cracks get bigger and bigger and can

1142
00:43:30,150 --> 00:43:28,560
eventually cause entire sections of the

1143
00:43:32,069 --> 00:43:30,160
mountain to break off

1144
00:43:33,670 --> 00:43:32,079
and according to scientists this is how

1145
00:43:34,630 --> 00:43:33,680
the flat faces of the pyramid were

1146
00:43:36,230 --> 00:43:34,640
formed

1147
00:43:38,230 --> 00:43:36,240
however there are those that believe

1148
00:43:40,069 --> 00:43:38,240
that this pyramid is too perfect to

1149
00:43:42,069 --> 00:43:40,079
possibly be the result of natural

1150
00:43:43,990 --> 00:43:42,079
processes and that it serves as

1151
00:43:46,470 --> 00:43:44,000
undeniable proof that an advanced

1152
00:43:48,390 --> 00:43:46,480
civilization once thrived on what is now

1153
00:43:51,030 --> 00:43:48,400
a desolate continent

1154
00:43:53,030 --> 00:43:51,040
and listen there's almost nothing that i

1155
00:43:55,670 --> 00:43:53,040
would like to believe more i mean

1156
00:43:58,230 --> 00:43:55,680
pyramids in antarctica yes please i want

1157
00:44:00,230 --> 00:43:58,240
to read every reddit manifesto and watch

1158
00:44:02,390 --> 00:44:00,240
every sketchy youtube video on this that

1159
00:44:04,230 --> 00:44:02,400
there is i want to buy every poorly

1160
00:44:06,550 --> 00:44:04,240
written and wonkily formatted ebook i

1161
00:44:09,270 --> 00:44:06,560
can find on the subject and honestly i

1162
00:44:10,950 --> 00:44:09,280
basically have but as objectively

1163
00:44:13,109 --> 00:44:10,960
awesome and entertaining as i find this

1164
00:44:14,150 --> 00:44:13,119
topic to be and as much as i want to

1165
00:44:16,870 --> 00:44:14,160
believe it

1166
00:44:18,630 --> 00:44:16,880
i can't really say that i was convinced

1167
00:44:20,470 --> 00:44:18,640
it's fun to think about but there are

1168
00:44:22,390 --> 00:44:20,480
three main facts that make it hard to

1169
00:44:24,630 --> 00:44:22,400
accept that this was an intentionally

1170
00:44:27,190 --> 00:44:24,640
and intelligently built pyramid

1171
00:44:29,190 --> 00:44:27,200
the first is obviously that antarctica

1172
00:44:31,990 --> 00:44:29,200
has been a frozen wasteland for almost

1173
00:44:34,069 --> 00:44:32,000
100 million years whereas by the latest

1174
00:44:36,630 --> 00:44:34,079
estimates homo sapiens appeared around

1175
00:44:38,870 --> 00:44:36,640
300 000 years ago so if this is a

1176
00:44:41,750 --> 00:44:38,880
pyramid from a lost civilization it

1177
00:44:43,910 --> 00:44:41,760
wasn't even remotely human and given the

1178
00:44:45,829 --> 00:44:43,920
vastness of space and the unfathomable

1179
00:44:47,190 --> 00:44:45,839
expanse of time between now and 100

1180
00:44:49,030 --> 00:44:47,200
million years ago

1181
00:44:50,790 --> 00:44:49,040
i'm open-minded enough to consider the

1182
00:44:52,870 --> 00:44:50,800
possibility that earth may have been

1183
00:44:55,109 --> 00:44:52,880
colonized at one time by an advanced

1184
00:44:57,430 --> 00:44:55,119
species of pyramid builders

1185
00:44:59,910 --> 00:44:57,440
but without further proof that's just

1186
00:45:02,150 --> 00:44:59,920
too big of a leap to take especially if

1187
00:45:03,910 --> 00:45:02,160
it could just be a mountain

1188
00:45:05,589 --> 00:45:03,920
the second reason i have a hard time

1189
00:45:08,710 --> 00:45:05,599
believing that this is an intelligently

1190
00:45:11,030 --> 00:45:08,720
built pyramid is its sheer size

1191
00:45:12,950 --> 00:45:11,040
at around four thousand feet or twelve

1192
00:45:15,109 --> 00:45:12,960
hundred meters it would be a very

1193
00:45:17,829 --> 00:45:15,119
modestly sized mountain

1194
00:45:18,950 --> 00:45:17,839
but it would be an absolute monster of a

1195
00:45:20,790 --> 00:45:18,960
pyramid

1196
00:45:24,390 --> 00:45:20,800
at 10 times the size of the great

1197
00:45:26,150 --> 00:45:24,400
pyramid of giza or as tall as 3.3 empire

1198
00:45:28,309 --> 00:45:26,160
state buildings stacked on top of each

1199
00:45:30,870 --> 00:45:28,319
other a construction effort of this

1200
00:45:33,030 --> 00:45:30,880
scale would be virtually unfathomable

1201
00:45:35,109 --> 00:45:33,040
even with our current technology

1202
00:45:36,630 --> 00:45:35,119
and the third reason is that unlike

1203
00:45:37,750 --> 00:45:36,640
other megalithic pyramids found

1204
00:45:39,510 --> 00:45:37,760
throughout the world that are

1205
00:45:42,150 --> 00:45:39,520
constructed from large blocks of

1206
00:45:44,230 --> 00:45:42,160
quarried stone this pyramid appears to

1207
00:45:46,790 --> 00:45:44,240
be made out of one solid relatively

1208
00:45:48,630 --> 00:45:46,800
uniform piece of stone and while

1209
00:45:50,309 --> 00:45:48,640
conceivably this could be a mountain

1210
00:45:52,150 --> 00:45:50,319
that was intentionally shaped to form a

1211
00:45:53,990 --> 00:45:52,160
pyramid there's no reason to

1212
00:45:55,670 --> 00:45:54,000
automatically assume that given that

1213
00:45:57,829 --> 00:45:55,680
there are natural processes that could

1214
00:46:00,790 --> 00:45:57,839
explain this just as easily

1215
00:46:02,230 --> 00:46:00,800
so as much as it saddens me i had to let

1216
00:46:04,710 --> 00:46:02,240
go of my dream that the pure man in

1217
00:46:07,190 --> 00:46:04,720
antarctica was actually a thing

1218
00:46:08,069 --> 00:46:07,200
r.i.p and arctic pyramid we hardly knew

1219
00:46:10,470 --> 00:46:08,079
thee

1220
00:46:12,710 --> 00:46:10,480
but then something very strange started

1221
00:46:14,870 --> 00:46:12,720
happening that made me reconsider

1222
00:46:16,710 --> 00:46:14,880
and to be perfectly honest i actually

1223
00:46:18,710 --> 00:46:16,720
hesitate to tell you this

1224
00:46:20,230 --> 00:46:18,720
it's my intention with this podcast to

1225
00:46:22,550 --> 00:46:20,240
never put anything in front of you that

1226
00:46:24,069 --> 00:46:22,560
i can't corroborate and i can't prove

1227
00:46:25,750 --> 00:46:24,079
what i'm about to say

1228
00:46:27,510 --> 00:46:25,760
i'll link up everything that i can find

1229
00:46:30,309 --> 00:46:27,520
in the episode brief but none of it is

1230
00:46:32,710 --> 00:46:30,319
conclusive there is no smoking gun

1231
00:46:34,710 --> 00:46:32,720
and as always i would recommend that you

1232
00:46:36,150 --> 00:46:34,720
never take anyone's word for anything

1233
00:46:37,910 --> 00:46:36,160
including mine

1234
00:46:40,230 --> 00:46:37,920
so take everything that i'm about to say

1235
00:46:41,910 --> 00:46:40,240
with a big grain of salt if you find it

1236
00:46:44,150 --> 00:46:41,920
interesting you can put it on the shelf

1237
00:46:45,589 --> 00:46:44,160
and see if something comes of it later

1238
00:46:47,430 --> 00:46:45,599
okay so

1239
00:46:49,990 --> 00:46:47,440
when i first started to dig into the ufo

1240
00:46:52,069 --> 00:46:50,000
phenomenon in the summer of 2021 the

1241
00:46:54,710 --> 00:46:52,079
whole topic of antarctica was one of the

1242
00:46:57,270 --> 00:46:54,720
first major rabbit holes i went down and

1243
00:46:59,349 --> 00:46:57,280
for a couple of weeks i was obsessed i

1244
00:47:00,950 --> 00:46:59,359
got really into looking in antarctica on

1245
00:47:03,030 --> 00:47:00,960
google earth and would spend hours

1246
00:47:04,790 --> 00:47:03,040
zooming in on mountain ranges coastlines

1247
00:47:05,829 --> 00:47:04,800
and other features just to see what i

1248
00:47:07,270 --> 00:47:05,839
could see

1249
00:47:09,349 --> 00:47:07,280
there were lots of other people at the

1250
00:47:11,030 --> 00:47:09,359
time on reddit and other places who were

1251
00:47:12,870 --> 00:47:11,040
doing the same kind of thing and sharing

1252
00:47:15,190 --> 00:47:12,880
coordinates from what they found

1253
00:47:16,550 --> 00:47:15,200
and i remember some weird ones

1254
00:47:18,950 --> 00:47:16,560
there was a spot that looked like there

1255
00:47:21,030 --> 00:47:18,960
might be half of a crashed saucer-shaped

1256
00:47:22,309 --> 00:47:21,040
craft sticking out of the snow and

1257
00:47:24,309 --> 00:47:22,319
another place on the side of the

1258
00:47:26,790 --> 00:47:24,319
mountain that seemed to have a ufo

1259
00:47:28,950 --> 00:47:26,800
shaped hole going into its interior

1260
00:47:30,630 --> 00:47:28,960
and of course there was the pyramid

1261
00:47:32,549 --> 00:47:30,640
i found all of this endlessly

1262
00:47:34,390 --> 00:47:32,559
interesting but i also didn't put a lot

1263
00:47:35,589 --> 00:47:34,400
of stock in any particular theories or

1264
00:47:37,109 --> 00:47:35,599
conclusions

1265
00:47:39,030 --> 00:47:37,119
i feel the same way about photos of

1266
00:47:41,430 --> 00:47:39,040
supposed anomalies or intelligently

1267
00:47:43,750 --> 00:47:41,440
designed objects on the moon and mars

1268
00:47:45,910 --> 00:47:43,760
it's all in good fun but i don't really

1269
00:47:48,230 --> 00:47:45,920
know what i'm looking at our brains are

1270
00:47:49,430 --> 00:47:48,240
wired to recognize shapes faces and

1271
00:47:51,990 --> 00:47:49,440
patterns and things that aren't

1272
00:47:53,990 --> 00:47:52,000
necessarily there like seeing a cloud

1273
00:47:56,549 --> 00:47:54,000
shaped like a duck or the virgin mary on

1274
00:47:58,390 --> 00:47:56,559
a burnt piece of toast and frankly

1275
00:48:01,190 --> 00:47:58,400
pyramids and crotch saucers feel a

1276
00:48:03,190 --> 00:48:01,200
little too on the nose to be credible

1277
00:48:05,109 --> 00:48:03,200
and before long a new topic caught my

1278
00:48:06,870 --> 00:48:05,119
attention and i moved on

1279
00:48:08,069 --> 00:48:06,880
but then when i began the outline for

1280
00:48:10,390 --> 00:48:08,079
what would eventually become this

1281
00:48:13,030 --> 00:48:10,400
episode i went back to find all these

1282
00:48:15,190 --> 00:48:13,040
anomalies and the pyramid in particular

1283
00:48:17,190 --> 00:48:15,200
only to find that they were gone

1284
00:48:19,349 --> 00:48:17,200
and while i can't prove conclusively

1285
00:48:21,109 --> 00:48:19,359
what it looked like before if you go to

1286
00:48:23,109 --> 00:48:21,119
google earth there are still some major

1287
00:48:24,390 --> 00:48:23,119
clues that something strange is going on

1288
00:48:26,470 --> 00:48:24,400
here

1289
00:48:29,109 --> 00:48:26,480
if you go to google earth and type in

1290
00:48:31,349 --> 00:48:29,119
pyramid antarctica it will take you to a

1291
00:48:33,430 --> 00:48:31,359
location in antarctica but there's

1292
00:48:34,870 --> 00:48:33,440
nothing there and not in the sense that

1293
00:48:37,589 --> 00:48:34,880
it's antarctica and there isn't a

1294
00:48:39,109 --> 00:48:37,599
starbucks or a 7-eleven to be found i

1295
00:48:42,069 --> 00:48:39,119
mean there's nothing

1296
00:48:44,790 --> 00:48:42,079
not snow not ice not rocks

1297
00:48:46,230 --> 00:48:44,800
just a blank white expanse

1298
00:48:48,549 --> 00:48:46,240
there are mountains that surround the

1299
00:48:50,230 --> 00:48:48,559
area that can be seen quite clearly but

1300
00:48:52,230 --> 00:48:50,240
in the place where the pyramid used to

1301
00:48:54,549 --> 00:48:52,240
be in which google earth seems to still

1302
00:48:55,829 --> 00:48:54,559
recognize as a legitimate location there

1303
00:48:57,670 --> 00:48:55,839
is nothing

1304
00:48:59,589 --> 00:48:57,680
the landscape is as featureless as a

1305
00:49:01,030 --> 00:48:59,599
blank word document

1306
00:49:03,589 --> 00:49:01,040
when you zoom out far enough that the

1307
00:49:05,990 --> 00:49:03,599
pyramid is only just barely visible the

1308
00:49:08,309 --> 00:49:06,000
detail of the ground reappears

1309
00:49:10,470 --> 00:49:08,319
it's very strange

1310
00:49:11,990 --> 00:49:10,480
stranger still is that this doesn't

1311
00:49:14,150 --> 00:49:12,000
happen everywhere

1312
00:49:16,390 --> 00:49:14,160
if you zoom out just a little further

1313
00:49:18,549 --> 00:49:16,400
you'll see mcmurdo station nearby where

1314
00:49:21,109 --> 00:49:18,559
you can easily zoom in and see buildings

1315
00:49:24,150 --> 00:49:21,119
and even vehicles objects that are much

1316
00:49:26,069 --> 00:49:24,160
smaller than a 4 000 foot pyramid

1317
00:49:28,150 --> 00:49:26,079
another interesting detail is that as

1318
00:49:29,990 --> 00:49:28,160
recently as early april when you looked

1319
00:49:31,829 --> 00:49:30,000
at the pyramid on google earth although

1320
00:49:33,589 --> 00:49:31,839
it showed nothing on the ground the

1321
00:49:35,829 --> 00:49:33,599
little summary that pops up about the

1322
00:49:37,670 --> 00:49:35,839
area you searched for still showed an

1323
00:49:39,589 --> 00:49:37,680
actual picture of the pyramid and a

1324
00:49:41,510 --> 00:49:39,599
description of it but as of the

1325
00:49:44,390 --> 00:49:41,520
publishing of this episode in july of

1326
00:49:47,109 --> 00:49:44,400
2022 the image is some kind of a hut in

1327
00:49:49,190 --> 00:49:47,119
what looks to be a tropical location

1328
00:49:50,390 --> 00:49:49,200
is the antarctic pyramid being slowly

1329
00:49:52,390 --> 00:49:50,400
erased

1330
00:49:53,990 --> 00:49:52,400
i honestly don't know

1331
00:49:55,589 --> 00:49:54,000
i think it's important to note that what

1332
00:49:57,750 --> 00:49:55,599
i'm describing about how the pyramid

1333
00:49:59,430 --> 00:49:57,760
looks on google earth can be said for

1334
00:50:01,349 --> 00:49:59,440
most of the continent

1335
00:50:03,910 --> 00:50:01,359
from a distance you can see the details

1336
00:50:05,670 --> 00:50:03,920
of the landscape but as you zoom in huge

1337
00:50:07,910 --> 00:50:05,680
areas look like they were sloppily

1338
00:50:09,990 --> 00:50:07,920
whited out in microsoft paint

1339
00:50:12,309 --> 00:50:10,000
so it would be an overreach to assume

1340
00:50:13,990 --> 00:50:12,319
that if this was done intentionally that

1341
00:50:15,190 --> 00:50:14,000
it was done specifically because of the

1342
00:50:17,030 --> 00:50:15,200
pyramid

1343
00:50:19,349 --> 00:50:17,040
so maybe there is some logical

1344
00:50:21,030 --> 00:50:19,359
non-conspiracy reason for why so much of

1345
00:50:22,069 --> 00:50:21,040
the continent is unviewable when you

1346
00:50:23,430 --> 00:50:22,079
zoom in

1347
00:50:25,270 --> 00:50:23,440
it's possible

1348
00:50:26,870 --> 00:50:25,280
maybe the reflection of the snow or its

1349
00:50:28,470 --> 00:50:26,880
location at the bottom of the globe make

1350
00:50:30,549 --> 00:50:28,480
it hard to photograph

1351
00:50:32,790 --> 00:50:30,559
maybe it just isn't a priority

1352
00:50:34,549 --> 00:50:32,800
but based on the evidence it also seems

1353
00:50:36,549 --> 00:50:34,559
entirely possible that there is

1354
00:50:38,950 --> 00:50:36,559
something in antarctica that the powers

1355
00:50:40,470 --> 00:50:38,960
that be don't want us to see

1356
00:50:42,309 --> 00:50:40,480
what could that be

1357
00:50:43,990 --> 00:50:42,319
and could the nazis have stumbled across

1358
00:50:45,510 --> 00:50:44,000
whatever it was in the lead-up to world

1359
00:50:47,030 --> 00:50:45,520
war ii

1360
00:50:48,549 --> 00:50:47,040
we've already discussed some of the

1361
00:50:50,710 --> 00:50:48,559
possibilities for what they may have

1362
00:50:52,390 --> 00:50:50,720
found including the remnants of atlantis

1363
00:50:53,750 --> 00:50:52,400
or some other advanced civilization in

1364
00:50:55,190 --> 00:50:53,760
the distant past

1365
00:50:57,589 --> 00:50:55,200
but there are other possibilities that

1366
00:51:00,390 --> 00:50:57,599
have been suggested and you better strap

1367
00:51:02,309 --> 00:51:00,400
in because they only get more bizarre

1368
00:51:04,950 --> 00:51:02,319
and one of the strangest of these is the

1369
00:51:07,750 --> 00:51:04,960
idea that there is a secret alien base

1370
00:51:09,750 --> 00:51:07,760
located under the ice in antarctica

1371
00:51:12,390 --> 00:51:09,760
this is an idea that pops up throughout

1372
00:51:14,390 --> 00:51:12,400
the ufo nazi lore but perhaps the most

1373
00:51:16,309 --> 00:51:14,400
famous and intriguing source for this

1374
00:51:18,390 --> 00:51:16,319
has been presented by emmy award-winning

1375
00:51:21,430 --> 00:51:18,400
investigative journalist and grand daum

1376
00:51:23,349 --> 00:51:21,440
of ufology linda molten howe so let's

1377
00:51:25,829 --> 00:51:23,359
start with that story

1378
00:51:28,390 --> 00:51:25,839
linda moltenhau reported in her 2019

1379
00:51:30,630 --> 00:51:28,400
documentary antarctica alien secrets

1380
00:51:32,390 --> 00:51:30,640
beneath the ice that she was approached

1381
00:51:34,790 --> 00:51:32,400
by an alleged whistleblower within the

1382
00:51:36,950 --> 00:51:34,800
military about the existence of massive

1383
00:51:38,230 --> 00:51:36,960
mysterious structures under the ice in

1384
00:51:40,069 --> 00:51:38,240
antarctica

1385
00:51:41,829 --> 00:51:40,079
this whistleblower was a navy seal

1386
00:51:44,470 --> 00:51:41,839
lieutenant commander who asked molten

1387
00:51:46,549 --> 00:51:44,480
how to refer to him as spartan 1 and to

1388
00:51:49,430 --> 00:51:46,559
not reveal his seal team number

1389
00:51:50,950 --> 00:51:49,440
he claimed that in august of 2003 he was

1390
00:51:53,109 --> 00:51:50,960
sent to antarctica

1391
00:51:54,710 --> 00:51:53,119
his mission was to extract a scientist

1392
00:51:57,030 --> 00:51:54,720
who was there studying thousands of

1393
00:51:59,030 --> 00:51:57,040
glyphs that had been found there that he

1394
00:52:00,790 --> 00:51:59,040
said resembled those of the egyptians

1395
00:52:01,990 --> 00:52:00,800
and mayans but that were entirely

1396
00:52:04,390 --> 00:52:02,000
unknown to us

1397
00:52:05,990 --> 00:52:04,400
he also alleged these glyphs resemble

1398
00:52:07,750 --> 00:52:06,000
those that have been found on the moon

1399
00:52:09,829 --> 00:52:07,760
and on mars by members of the united

1400
00:52:11,589 --> 00:52:09,839
states secret space program

1401
00:52:13,910 --> 00:52:11,599
so yeah we're in the deep end of the

1402
00:52:16,069 --> 00:52:13,920
pool here don't fight it for now just

1403
00:52:18,230 --> 00:52:16,079
let it wash over you

1404
00:52:19,670 --> 00:52:18,240
according to spartan1 he was sent to the

1405
00:52:21,589 --> 00:52:19,680
beardmore glacier region where the

1406
00:52:23,790 --> 00:52:21,599
scientist was working and at this

1407
00:52:26,390 --> 00:52:23,800
location there was a massive black

1408
00:52:28,470 --> 00:52:26,400
octagon-shaped structure that protruded

1409
00:52:29,510 --> 00:52:28,480
18 feet above the ice made of black

1410
00:52:31,109 --> 00:52:29,520
basalt

1411
00:52:34,309 --> 00:52:31,119
on the front of this structure was a

1412
00:52:36,950 --> 00:52:34,319
black door 23 feet high and 18 feet

1413
00:52:39,030 --> 00:52:36,960
thick which opened easily with a gentle

1414
00:52:41,510 --> 00:52:39,040
push from just one finger

1415
00:52:43,589 --> 00:52:41,520
on this door was carved a star map and

1416
00:52:45,750 --> 00:52:43,599
an esoteric symbol known as the black

1417
00:52:48,870 --> 00:52:45,760
sun that interestingly was favored by

1418
00:52:51,190 --> 00:52:48,880
the nazis when spartan1 stepped inside

1419
00:52:53,670 --> 00:52:51,200
he found himself in a huge nine-acre

1420
00:52:56,150 --> 00:52:53,680
room with ramps leading down to other

1421
00:52:58,150 --> 00:52:56,160
equally massive spaces below and the

1422
00:53:00,390 --> 00:52:58,160
structure continued down one to two

1423
00:53:02,549 --> 00:53:00,400
miles deep into the ice

1424
00:53:05,349 --> 00:53:02,559
the story goes on from there and it only

1425
00:53:07,829 --> 00:53:05,359
gets progressively more wild but how

1426
00:53:09,829 --> 00:53:07,839
seriously should we take any of this is

1427
00:53:12,150 --> 00:53:09,839
linda molten how credible

1428
00:53:14,630 --> 00:53:12,160
like everything in ufology the answer to

1429
00:53:16,790 --> 00:53:14,640
that question is complicated and before

1430
00:53:18,710 --> 00:53:16,800
we dive into that i should admit my own

1431
00:53:21,109 --> 00:53:18,720
bias here i

1432
00:53:23,829 --> 00:53:21,119
love linda molten howe and i think she's

1433
00:53:26,069 --> 00:53:23,839
a badass she's one of the ogs of ufo

1434
00:53:27,910 --> 00:53:26,079
investigative journalism and in a field

1435
00:53:29,510 --> 00:53:27,920
where even today men greatly outnumber

1436
00:53:31,430 --> 00:53:29,520
women she's been doing her thing for

1437
00:53:33,750 --> 00:53:31,440
more than four decades she's a

1438
00:53:35,270 --> 00:53:33,760
trailblazer in every sense of the word

1439
00:53:36,870 --> 00:53:35,280
and if you've ever seen her holding

1440
00:53:38,630 --> 00:53:36,880
court on her youtube channel while

1441
00:53:40,630 --> 00:53:38,640
stroking her long-haired cats in front

1442
00:53:42,630 --> 00:53:40,640
of towering stacks of books

1443
00:53:45,349 --> 00:53:42,640
just know that that is everything that i

1444
00:53:46,390 --> 00:53:45,359
hope to someday be what a queen

1445
00:53:49,109 --> 00:53:46,400
however

1446
00:53:51,190 --> 00:53:49,119
despite my deep and abiding love for lmh

1447
00:53:53,589 --> 00:53:51,200
i can't deny that she's a complicated

1448
00:53:55,270 --> 00:53:53,599
figure and it's worth our time to take a

1449
00:53:58,309 --> 00:53:55,280
minute to talk about why this is the

1450
00:54:00,230 --> 00:53:58,319
case and to do so we need to go back to

1451
00:54:01,589 --> 00:54:00,240
the very beginning of linda molten how's

1452
00:54:04,790 --> 00:54:01,599
career

1453
00:54:06,710 --> 00:54:04,800
born in boise idaho in 1942 linda molten

1454
00:54:08,950 --> 00:54:06,720
howe set herself apart from her peers

1455
00:54:10,950 --> 00:54:08,960
early on she was a beauty queen

1456
00:54:14,069 --> 00:54:10,960
competing as miss idaho in the miss

1457
00:54:16,069 --> 00:54:14,079
america pageant in 1963 and she excelled

1458
00:54:17,829 --> 00:54:16,079
in intellectual pursuits as well

1459
00:54:19,510 --> 00:54:17,839
she received her ba in english

1460
00:54:22,069 --> 00:54:19,520
literature from the university of

1461
00:54:24,150 --> 00:54:22,079
colorado in 1965

1462
00:54:26,150 --> 00:54:24,160
after which she was awarded the stanley

1463
00:54:28,390 --> 00:54:26,160
babar scholarship for her master's

1464
00:54:30,230 --> 00:54:28,400
degree work at stanford university from

1465
00:54:32,870 --> 00:54:30,240
which she graduated with a master's in

1466
00:54:35,430 --> 00:54:32,880
communication in 1968.

1467
00:54:38,549 --> 00:54:35,440
by 1978 howe became the director of

1468
00:54:40,789 --> 00:54:38,559
special projects at kmgh tv in denver

1469
00:54:42,069 --> 00:54:40,799
colorado where her career really began

1470
00:54:43,910 --> 00:54:42,079
to take off

1471
00:54:46,069 --> 00:54:43,920
her work at the time was primarily

1472
00:54:47,589 --> 00:54:46,079
focused on environmental issues and she

1473
00:54:49,510 --> 00:54:47,599
made several documentaries on the

1474
00:54:51,430 --> 00:54:49,520
subject over the next two years

1475
00:54:53,510 --> 00:54:51,440
including poison in the wind which

1476
00:54:54,630 --> 00:54:53,520
compared smog pollution in los angeles

1477
00:54:56,789 --> 00:54:54,640
and denver

1478
00:54:58,630 --> 00:54:56,799
fire in the water about hydrogen is an

1479
00:55:01,510 --> 00:54:58,640
alternative energy source to fossil

1480
00:55:03,430 --> 00:55:01,520
fuels and a radioactive water about

1481
00:55:05,510 --> 00:55:03,440
uranium contamination of public drinking

1482
00:55:08,549 --> 00:55:05,520
water in a denver suburb

1483
00:55:11,430 --> 00:55:08,559
by 1980 howe's focus had shifted and she

1484
00:55:13,349 --> 00:55:11,440
produced a strange harvest a documentary

1485
00:55:14,630 --> 00:55:13,359
which explored the phenomenon of cattle

1486
00:55:16,870 --> 00:55:14,640
mutilation

1487
00:55:18,870 --> 00:55:16,880
in it she suggested that the unusual

1488
00:55:21,430 --> 00:55:18,880
wounds found on cattle are the work of

1489
00:55:23,270 --> 00:55:21,440
extraterrestrial beings who harvest body

1490
00:55:24,390 --> 00:55:23,280
parts required for their survival or

1491
00:55:26,630 --> 00:55:24,400
research

1492
00:55:28,390 --> 00:55:26,640
she also leveled a bold accusation

1493
00:55:30,549 --> 00:55:28,400
against the u.s government that they

1494
00:55:32,390 --> 00:55:30,559
both knew about this phenomenon and were

1495
00:55:34,549 --> 00:55:32,400
complicit in it

1496
00:55:37,589 --> 00:55:34,559
the documentary garnered a lot of media

1497
00:55:39,829 --> 00:55:37,599
attention and by march of 1983 linda

1498
00:55:42,710 --> 00:55:39,839
moltenhau was in new york city in the

1499
00:55:45,750 --> 00:55:42,720
offices of hbo signing contract to

1500
00:55:47,270 --> 00:55:45,760
produce a one-hour film called ufos the

1501
00:55:48,950 --> 00:55:47,280
e.t factor

1502
00:55:51,430 --> 00:55:48,960
as a seasoned journalist and

1503
00:55:53,349 --> 00:55:51,440
documentarian this was the big break

1504
00:55:54,549 --> 00:55:53,359
that she had been waiting for her entire

1505
00:55:56,710 --> 00:55:54,559
career

1506
00:55:58,549 --> 00:55:56,720
that night after signing the contract

1507
00:56:00,069 --> 00:55:58,559
she met up with an attorney named peter

1508
00:56:02,069 --> 00:56:00,079
gerstin for dinner

1509
00:56:04,309 --> 00:56:02,079
gersten was the attorney who represented

1510
00:56:06,230 --> 00:56:04,319
citizens against ufo secrecy and was

1511
00:56:08,870 --> 00:56:06,240
responsible for the first freedom of

1512
00:56:10,870 --> 00:56:08,880
information act request filed asking for

1513
00:56:13,670 --> 00:56:10,880
all ufo-related documents in the

1514
00:56:16,150 --> 00:56:13,680
possession of u.s intelligence agencies

1515
00:56:17,750 --> 00:56:16,160
at dinner gersten showed how documents

1516
00:56:20,069 --> 00:56:17,760
that have been shared with him by a man

1517
00:56:21,829 --> 00:56:20,079
named richard c doty who worked at

1518
00:56:23,190 --> 00:56:21,839
kirtland air force base in albuquerque

1519
00:56:25,430 --> 00:56:23,200
new mexico

1520
00:56:27,510 --> 00:56:25,440
these documents were about a ufo landing

1521
00:56:29,430 --> 00:56:27,520
an alien contact event that occurred at

1522
00:56:31,510 --> 00:56:29,440
ellsworth air force base

1523
00:56:32,870 --> 00:56:31,520
gersten said that dodie was willing to

1524
00:56:35,030 --> 00:56:32,880
share more information about the

1525
00:56:36,870 --> 00:56:35,040
incident with howe including the names

1526
00:56:38,789 --> 00:56:36,880
of the specific witnesses that were

1527
00:56:40,630 --> 00:56:38,799
there but she needed to fly out to

1528
00:56:42,150 --> 00:56:40,640
kirtland air force base for a meeting to

1529
00:56:44,150 --> 00:56:42,160
receive them

1530
00:56:45,589 --> 00:56:44,160
you have to imagine that that was one of

1531
00:56:48,309 --> 00:56:45,599
the best nights of linda molten house

1532
00:56:50,309 --> 00:56:48,319
life right she was 41 years old in the

1533
00:56:52,630 --> 00:56:50,319
prime of her career and after years of

1534
00:56:54,470 --> 00:56:52,640
paying her dues she takes a chance on a

1535
00:56:57,109 --> 00:56:54,480
crazy story that no other credible

1536
00:56:59,030 --> 00:56:57,119
journalist will touch and it pays off

1537
00:57:00,950 --> 00:56:59,040
she starts getting more recognition her

1538
00:57:03,510 --> 00:57:00,960
star begins to rise

1539
00:57:05,589 --> 00:57:03,520
and then she gets a deal with hbo and on

1540
00:57:07,430 --> 00:57:05,599
the night that she signs the contract

1541
00:57:09,829 --> 00:57:07,440
she suddenly gets this invitation to

1542
00:57:13,349 --> 00:57:09,839
glimpse behind the curtain to enter the

1543
00:57:15,910 --> 00:57:13,359
inner sanctum of ufo secrecy and perhaps

1544
00:57:18,309 --> 00:57:15,920
finally find the truth not just for

1545
00:57:20,150 --> 00:57:18,319
herself but for all mankind

1546
00:57:22,789 --> 00:57:20,160
and if government insiders like richard

1547
00:57:24,390 --> 00:57:22,799
c doty are willing to go on the record

1548
00:57:26,390 --> 00:57:24,400
she'd be breaking the story of the

1549
00:57:28,390 --> 00:57:26,400
millennia that our government was in

1550
00:57:31,349 --> 00:57:28,400
direct contact with extraterrestrial

1551
00:57:34,470 --> 00:57:31,359
beings a few short weeks later on april

1552
00:57:37,109 --> 00:57:34,480
9th 1983 linda molten howe is met by

1553
00:57:39,190 --> 00:57:37,119
doty at kirtland air force base he takes

1554
00:57:41,670 --> 00:57:39,200
her into an office that he says belongs

1555
00:57:42,710 --> 00:57:41,680
to his boss a colonel and closes the

1556
00:57:44,390 --> 00:57:42,720
door

1557
00:57:45,990 --> 00:57:44,400
how thinks that she is there to learn

1558
00:57:48,549 --> 00:57:46,000
the names of the ellsworth landing

1559
00:57:50,549 --> 00:57:48,559
witnesses but instead

1560
00:57:53,190 --> 00:57:50,559
dodie says to her that her documentary

1561
00:57:54,390 --> 00:57:53,200
on cattle mutilation has broadsided the

1562
00:57:56,230 --> 00:57:54,400
us government

1563
00:57:57,670 --> 00:57:56,240
and that they'd never thought a serious

1564
00:58:00,710 --> 00:57:57,680
journalist would take this subject

1565
00:58:02,789 --> 00:58:00,720
seriously and actually investigate it

1566
00:58:03,829 --> 00:58:02,799
at this point linda molten how is

1567
00:58:05,510 --> 00:58:03,839
reeling

1568
00:58:07,190 --> 00:58:05,520
dodie asks her to move from her chair to

1569
00:58:09,670 --> 00:58:07,200
another chair across the room and he

1570
00:58:11,349 --> 00:58:09,680
hands her a folder full of documents

1571
00:58:13,589 --> 00:58:11,359
he tells her that the higher-ups want

1572
00:58:15,270 --> 00:58:13,599
her to see what's inside the folder and

1573
00:58:17,510 --> 00:58:15,280
that she's not allowed to take them with

1574
00:58:19,910 --> 00:58:17,520
her or to take notes

1575
00:58:21,910 --> 00:58:19,920
how opens the folder in the very first

1576
00:58:24,230 --> 00:58:21,920
document on the top is a briefing for

1577
00:58:27,190 --> 00:58:24,240
the president of the united states on

1578
00:58:29,430 --> 00:58:27,200
unidentified aerial craft whoa

1579
00:58:31,430 --> 00:58:29,440
so she starts reading doing her best to

1580
00:58:33,670 --> 00:58:31,440
commit every word to memory

1581
00:58:35,510 --> 00:58:33,680
the first few pages are all historical

1582
00:58:37,750 --> 00:58:35,520
context things that how was already

1583
00:58:40,150 --> 00:58:37,760
familiar with given her investigations

1584
00:58:41,990 --> 00:58:40,160
like the early ufo crashes and other ufo

1585
00:58:43,510 --> 00:58:42,000
sightings and incidents

1586
00:58:45,829 --> 00:58:43,520
but here's what appeared to be

1587
00:58:48,150 --> 00:58:45,839
confirmation by the us government that

1588
00:58:49,750 --> 00:58:48,160
these things had actually occurred

1589
00:58:52,230 --> 00:58:49,760
but on the third page was something

1590
00:58:54,390 --> 00:58:52,240
entirely different and on it linda

1591
00:58:56,230 --> 00:58:54,400
molten howe read the words that she said

1592
00:58:59,349 --> 00:58:56,240
changed her life forever

1593
00:59:01,750 --> 00:58:59,359
the document read quote these biological

1594
00:59:04,069 --> 00:59:01,760
extraterrestrial entities manipulated

1595
00:59:06,150 --> 00:59:04,079
dna and already evolving primates to

1596
00:59:08,390 --> 00:59:06,160
create homo sapien

1597
00:59:10,230 --> 00:59:08,400
and on the final page there was mention

1598
00:59:12,309 --> 00:59:10,240
of a secret project called project

1599
00:59:14,390 --> 00:59:12,319
garnet something that jumped out at howe

1600
00:59:16,870 --> 00:59:14,400
because garnet is her birthstone a

1601
00:59:18,870 --> 00:59:16,880
description of project garnet concluded

1602
00:59:21,109 --> 00:59:18,880
all questions and mysteries about the

1603
00:59:22,710 --> 00:59:21,119
evolution of homo sapiens on this planet

1604
00:59:25,349 --> 00:59:22,720
have been answered and this

1605
00:59:27,829 --> 00:59:25,359
investigation is closed

1606
00:59:29,190 --> 00:59:27,839
linda molten howe was thunderstruck by

1607
00:59:31,270 --> 00:59:29,200
what she read

1608
00:59:34,309 --> 00:59:31,280
she flies back to colorado and when she

1609
00:59:35,990 --> 00:59:34,319
gets home she calls hbo she tells them

1610
00:59:37,829 --> 00:59:36,000
everything that has just happened to her

1611
00:59:39,190 --> 00:59:37,839
and suggests a new direction for her

1612
00:59:40,710 --> 00:59:39,200
documentary

1613
00:59:42,150 --> 00:59:40,720
they tell her that she should come back

1614
00:59:43,910 --> 00:59:42,160
to new york city so that they can have

1615
00:59:45,750 --> 00:59:43,920
another meeting

1616
00:59:48,230 --> 00:59:45,760
two weeks later she's back in the hbo

1617
00:59:50,069 --> 00:59:48,240
offices and they basically tell her that

1618
00:59:51,990 --> 00:59:50,079
they aren't moving forward with any

1619
00:59:55,030 --> 00:59:52,000
version of the documentary at all unless

1620
00:59:57,349 --> 00:59:55,040
she can get the president vice president

1621
00:59:59,190 --> 00:59:57,359
secretary of defense or the chairman of

1622
01:00:01,990 --> 00:59:59,200
the joint chiefs of staff to go on the

1623
01:00:04,230 --> 01:00:02,000
record corroborating her claims

1624
01:00:06,870 --> 01:00:04,240
now to me what this sounds like is that

1625
01:00:08,870 --> 01:00:06,880
hbo got spooked they brought on this

1626
01:00:10,549 --> 01:00:08,880
respected investigative journalist who

1627
01:00:13,190 --> 01:00:10,559
could add an air of legitimacy to a

1628
01:00:15,430 --> 01:00:13,200
documentary on ufos and then a couple of

1629
01:00:17,190 --> 01:00:15,440
weeks after signing a contract she's

1630
01:00:18,789 --> 01:00:17,200
calling them talking about meeting with

1631
01:00:20,230 --> 01:00:18,799
shadowy government officials and that

1632
01:00:21,990 --> 01:00:20,240
humans are genetically engineered

1633
01:00:24,150 --> 01:00:22,000
hominids created by biological

1634
01:00:25,910 --> 01:00:24,160
extraterrestrial entities who are in

1635
01:00:28,390 --> 01:00:25,920
contact with our government

1636
01:00:29,910 --> 01:00:28,400
and of course she has nothing to prove

1637
01:00:31,750 --> 01:00:29,920
any of this

1638
01:00:33,589 --> 01:00:31,760
i'm sure when that happened everyone

1639
01:00:35,829 --> 01:00:33,599
involved at hbo felt like they had made

1640
01:00:38,309 --> 01:00:35,839
a huge and potentially very embarrassing

1641
01:00:39,670 --> 01:00:38,319
mistake in taking on this project and

1642
01:00:42,309 --> 01:00:39,680
i'm sure that they couldn't hit the

1643
01:00:44,549 --> 01:00:42,319
abort button fast enough and i'm betting

1644
01:00:46,230 --> 01:00:44,559
the giving how an impossible hurdle to

1645
01:00:48,630 --> 01:00:46,240
jump in order to move forward with the

1646
01:00:50,230 --> 01:00:48,640
project was their way of wiggling out of

1647
01:00:51,670 --> 01:00:50,240
following through on a contract they'd

1648
01:00:53,990 --> 01:00:51,680
already signed

1649
01:00:56,630 --> 01:00:54,000
but that didn't stop linda molten howe

1650
01:00:59,109 --> 01:00:56,640
she was so close and now she not only

1651
01:01:00,710 --> 01:00:59,119
had a contact on the inside but she had

1652
01:01:03,270 --> 01:01:00,720
enough of the big picture to know what

1653
01:01:05,829 --> 01:01:03,280
she was looking for so for the next two

1654
01:01:07,750 --> 01:01:05,839
years she worked tirelessly still

1655
01:01:09,349 --> 01:01:07,760
funding all of her work trying to put

1656
01:01:11,910 --> 01:01:09,359
together more of the story and the

1657
01:01:14,789 --> 01:01:11,920
evidence to corroborate it however her

1658
01:01:17,510 --> 01:01:14,799
contract with hbo ran out in 1985 and

1659
01:01:19,030 --> 01:01:17,520
the documentary was never made

1660
01:01:21,109 --> 01:01:19,040
those of you who are already familiar

1661
01:01:22,950 --> 01:01:21,119
with richard dodie already know how this

1662
01:01:25,750 --> 01:01:22,960
story goes but for those of you who

1663
01:01:27,670 --> 01:01:25,760
don't richard doty was a special agent

1664
01:01:29,670 --> 01:01:27,680
for the u.s air force office of special

1665
01:01:31,349 --> 01:01:29,680
investigations specializing in

1666
01:01:32,870 --> 01:01:31,359
counterintelligence

1667
01:01:34,950 --> 01:01:32,880
he later admitted to feeding

1668
01:01:37,030 --> 01:01:34,960
disinformation to linda molten howe and

1669
01:01:39,510 --> 01:01:37,040
to others in the ufo community in order

1670
01:01:41,829 --> 01:01:39,520
to discredit them in their work

1671
01:01:43,510 --> 01:01:41,839
among these others was paul benowitz a

1672
01:01:45,430 --> 01:01:43,520
businessman and physicist who had

1673
01:01:47,190 --> 01:01:45,440
recorded strange lights in the sky from

1674
01:01:48,230 --> 01:01:47,200
his home across from kirtland air force

1675
01:01:50,390 --> 01:01:48,240
base

1676
01:01:51,990 --> 01:01:50,400
while virtually anyone who had contact

1677
01:01:53,990 --> 01:01:52,000
with dodie had their reputations and

1678
01:01:56,470 --> 01:01:54,000
careers irreparably tarnished if not

1679
01:01:58,230 --> 01:01:56,480
utterly destroyed the benowit's case was

1680
01:01:59,910 --> 01:01:58,240
particularly tragic

1681
01:02:01,990 --> 01:01:59,920
as a result of what he was told and

1682
01:02:05,510 --> 01:02:02,000
shown by dodie benoit's mental health

1683
01:02:07,190 --> 01:02:05,520
began to deteriorate rapidly in 1988 his

1684
01:02:08,630 --> 01:02:07,200
sons took over his business and his

1685
01:02:09,829 --> 01:02:08,640
family committed him to a mental

1686
01:02:11,190 --> 01:02:09,839
institution

1687
01:02:13,029 --> 01:02:11,200
we don't have time to go down that

1688
01:02:14,950 --> 01:02:13,039
particular rabbit hole today because

1689
01:02:17,109 --> 01:02:14,960
it's one that is exceedingly dark and

1690
01:02:18,710 --> 01:02:17,119
seemingly bottomless but i'll do an

1691
01:02:20,630 --> 01:02:18,720
episode on government disinformation

1692
01:02:22,870 --> 01:02:20,640
campaigns in the ufo community at some

1693
01:02:24,069 --> 01:02:22,880
point in the future and in the meantime

1694
01:02:26,309 --> 01:02:24,079
if you're interested in learning more

1695
01:02:28,710 --> 01:02:26,319
about what happened i highly recommend a

1696
01:02:31,190 --> 01:02:28,720
documentary called the mirage men i'll

1697
01:02:33,270 --> 01:02:31,200
link to that in the episode brief

1698
01:02:35,430 --> 01:02:33,280
however it's exactly this kind of

1699
01:02:37,750 --> 01:02:35,440
intentional and targeted disinformation

1700
01:02:39,349 --> 01:02:37,760
on the subject of ufos that can make it

1701
01:02:41,270 --> 01:02:39,359
very difficult to establish the

1702
01:02:42,230 --> 01:02:41,280
credibility of anyone who's been caught

1703
01:02:44,230 --> 01:02:42,240
up in it

1704
01:02:45,910 --> 01:02:44,240
in the case of linda molten howe

1705
01:02:47,829 --> 01:02:45,920
she says that what she saw in the file

1706
01:02:49,910 --> 01:02:47,839
folder at kirtland air force base made

1707
01:02:51,589 --> 01:02:49,920
it impossible for her to pursue anything

1708
01:02:53,109 --> 01:02:51,599
else and she spent the rest of her

1709
01:02:55,349 --> 01:02:53,119
career investigating the government's

1710
01:02:57,829 --> 01:02:55,359
involvement with ufos ets and the

1711
01:03:00,309 --> 01:02:57,839
origins of the human species

1712
01:03:02,549 --> 01:03:00,319
but wait does she not realize that dodie

1713
01:03:04,630 --> 01:03:02,559
fed her misinformation or does she not

1714
01:03:06,470 --> 01:03:04,640
believe that he did or is it just

1715
01:03:08,069 --> 01:03:06,480
hedging to avoid the embarrassment of

1716
01:03:10,150 --> 01:03:08,079
having been misled

1717
01:03:11,270 --> 01:03:10,160
once again there are no easy answers

1718
01:03:13,270 --> 01:03:11,280
here

1719
01:03:15,589 --> 01:03:13,280
first let's take a minute to talk about

1720
01:03:17,589 --> 01:03:15,599
counterintelligence and how it works

1721
01:03:19,510 --> 01:03:17,599
counterintelligence is an activity aimed

1722
01:03:21,029 --> 01:03:19,520
at protecting an agency's intelligence

1723
01:03:22,549 --> 01:03:21,039
program from an opposition's

1724
01:03:24,390 --> 01:03:22,559
intelligence service

1725
01:03:26,150 --> 01:03:24,400
so basically just like we're trying to

1726
01:03:27,510 --> 01:03:26,160
get intelligence on what our adversaries

1727
01:03:29,910 --> 01:03:27,520
are doing they're trying to get

1728
01:03:31,430 --> 01:03:29,920
intelligence on what we are doing so we

1729
01:03:32,870 --> 01:03:31,440
run counter intelligence to try to

1730
01:03:33,990 --> 01:03:32,880
protect the secrets that we don't want

1731
01:03:35,589 --> 01:03:34,000
them to have

1732
01:03:37,589 --> 01:03:35,599
this usually involves things like

1733
01:03:39,430 --> 01:03:37,599
leaking disinformation secretly

1734
01:03:41,349 --> 01:03:39,440
infiltrating groups and communities

1735
01:03:43,349 --> 01:03:41,359
trying to turn agents on the other side

1736
01:03:45,910 --> 01:03:43,359
into double agents and just generally

1737
01:03:47,910 --> 01:03:45,920
other sneaky spy but many countries

1738
01:03:49,510 --> 01:03:47,920
including the united states don't just

1739
01:03:52,470 --> 01:03:49,520
run counterintelligence on foreign

1740
01:03:55,670 --> 01:03:52,480
threats but on domestic ones as well

1741
01:03:57,510 --> 01:03:55,680
as in they spy on lie to and manipulate

1742
01:03:58,549 --> 01:03:57,520
their own citizens to protect state

1743
01:04:00,309 --> 01:03:58,559
secrets

1744
01:04:02,150 --> 01:04:00,319
and the fallout from these efforts can

1745
01:04:03,829 --> 01:04:02,160
be absolutely devastating to the people

1746
01:04:05,430 --> 01:04:03,839
who are targeted

1747
01:04:07,270 --> 01:04:05,440
most of these counterintelligence

1748
01:04:09,589 --> 01:04:07,280
efforts are meant to undermine people's

1749
01:04:11,510 --> 01:04:09,599
credibility to alienate them from those

1750
01:04:13,109 --> 01:04:11,520
they would otherwise influence to

1751
01:04:14,870 --> 01:04:13,119
manipulate them into doing things that

1752
01:04:17,270 --> 01:04:14,880
they wouldn't otherwise do

1753
01:04:19,109 --> 01:04:17,280
to destroy their reputations and even to

1754
01:04:20,150 --> 01:04:19,119
make them question reality in their own

1755
01:04:22,470 --> 01:04:20,160
sanity

1756
01:04:24,549 --> 01:04:22,480
as a result of these actions the lives

1757
01:04:26,230 --> 01:04:24,559
careers and families of innocent

1758
01:04:27,589 --> 01:04:26,240
ordinary people have been utterly

1759
01:04:28,950 --> 01:04:27,599
destroyed

1760
01:04:30,870 --> 01:04:28,960
for those who have been in the ufo

1761
01:04:32,309 --> 01:04:30,880
community for a long time and those who

1762
01:04:34,630 --> 01:04:32,319
are scholars of the history of modern

1763
01:04:36,710 --> 01:04:34,640
ufology the specter of government

1764
01:04:38,150 --> 01:04:36,720
meddling and misinformation is always

1765
01:04:40,230 --> 01:04:38,160
there in the background

1766
01:04:42,150 --> 01:04:40,240
they are rightfully on guard against it

1767
01:04:43,670 --> 01:04:42,160
and can be very suspicious of anyone in

1768
01:04:45,589 --> 01:04:43,680
the community who has any kind of an

1769
01:04:47,349 --> 01:04:45,599
intelligence background

1770
01:04:49,270 --> 01:04:47,359
this is actually the main source of the

1771
01:04:51,349 --> 01:04:49,280
considerable division in the community

1772
01:04:52,470 --> 01:04:51,359
over luis elizondo the former director

1773
01:04:54,549 --> 01:04:52,480
of atip

1774
01:04:56,069 --> 01:04:54,559
despite being the driving force and the

1775
01:04:57,990 --> 01:04:56,079
face behind the current push for

1776
01:04:59,510 --> 01:04:58,000
disclosure that has thus far resulted in

1777
01:05:02,069 --> 01:04:59,520
the public admission that the ufo

1778
01:05:03,990 --> 01:05:02,079
phenomenon is real the acknowledgment of

1779
01:05:06,789 --> 01:05:04,000
videos and actual incidents involving

1780
01:05:08,549 --> 01:05:06,799
the military legislation being passed to

1781
01:05:11,270 --> 01:05:08,559
improve transparency and reporting

1782
01:05:14,150 --> 01:05:11,280
around uaps and the first hearings in

1783
01:05:16,309 --> 01:05:14,160
congress on ufos in 50 years there are

1784
01:05:17,589 --> 01:05:16,319
those that still don't trust elizondo

1785
01:05:18,630 --> 01:05:17,599
due to his counterintelligence

1786
01:05:20,390 --> 01:05:18,640
background

1787
01:05:21,990 --> 01:05:20,400
and while i don't necessarily agree with

1788
01:05:23,750 --> 01:05:22,000
them i can totally see where they're

1789
01:05:25,910 --> 01:05:23,760
coming from and i actually think it

1790
01:05:27,589 --> 01:05:25,920
makes a lot of sense to be skeptical

1791
01:05:28,870 --> 01:05:27,599
for his part when confronted with

1792
01:05:31,190 --> 01:05:28,880
questions about his background in

1793
01:05:32,870 --> 01:05:31,200
counter-intelligence lou's response has

1794
01:05:34,789 --> 01:05:32,880
been to emphatically deny that the

1795
01:05:36,470 --> 01:05:34,799
united states runs counterintelligence

1796
01:05:37,829 --> 01:05:36,480
on its own citizens

1797
01:05:39,670 --> 01:05:37,839
he admits that it's been done in the

1798
01:05:42,309 --> 01:05:39,680
past and that it has done massive damage

1799
01:05:43,670 --> 01:05:42,319
to members of the ufo community however

1800
01:05:45,270 --> 01:05:43,680
he claims that the government has

1801
01:05:47,109 --> 01:05:45,280
learned its lesson and that we don't do

1802
01:05:49,589 --> 01:05:47,119
that sort of thing anymore

1803
01:05:52,549 --> 01:05:49,599
and listen i truly have nothing but

1804
01:05:54,549 --> 01:05:52,559
respect for lu elizondo but i simply

1805
01:05:56,390 --> 01:05:54,559
don't believe that and i don't believe

1806
01:05:57,990 --> 01:05:56,400
that he believes it either

1807
01:06:00,309 --> 01:05:58,000
i'd argue that we have really nothing

1808
01:06:02,470 --> 01:06:00,319
but evidence that that is not the case

1809
01:06:04,069 --> 01:06:02,480
but even if that weren't true any

1810
01:06:06,309 --> 01:06:04,079
thinking person would still have

1811
01:06:09,430 --> 01:06:06,319
questions that's why we call it breaking

1812
01:06:11,029 --> 01:06:09,440
trust once it's broken it's broken and

1813
01:06:13,510 --> 01:06:11,039
even if you manage to rebuild it and

1814
01:06:15,750 --> 01:06:13,520
glue the pieces back together over time

1815
01:06:17,270 --> 01:06:15,760
you'll always see the cracks

1816
01:06:19,190 --> 01:06:17,280
which is exactly what makes it so

1817
01:06:20,950 --> 01:06:19,200
difficult to make any kind of a judgment

1818
01:06:22,789 --> 01:06:20,960
with regards to the truth of anything

1819
01:06:24,870 --> 01:06:22,799
that has been touched by the corrosive

1820
01:06:27,190 --> 01:06:24,880
influence of richard doty

1821
01:06:29,029 --> 01:06:27,200
doty admits to intentionally feeding

1822
01:06:30,150 --> 01:06:29,039
disinformation to people in the ufo

1823
01:06:32,230 --> 01:06:30,160
community

1824
01:06:33,670 --> 01:06:32,240
he admits to going to elaborate lengths

1825
01:06:36,069 --> 01:06:33,680
to make his targets believe this

1826
01:06:38,549 --> 01:06:36,079
disinformation was real by doing things

1827
01:06:40,390 --> 01:06:38,559
like staging fake ufo crashes

1828
01:06:42,150 --> 01:06:40,400
he admits to turning certain members of

1829
01:06:44,549 --> 01:06:42,160
the community including author of the

1830
01:06:46,710 --> 01:06:44,559
first major book on roswell bill moore

1831
01:06:48,549 --> 01:06:46,720
into an asset who both intentionally

1832
01:06:49,990 --> 01:06:48,559
lied to and informed on other members of

1833
01:06:52,430 --> 01:06:50,000
the community

1834
01:06:54,710 --> 01:06:52,440
and he admits all of this completely

1835
01:06:56,150 --> 01:06:54,720
unself-consciously and with an unnerving

1836
01:06:58,150 --> 01:06:56,160
lack of remorse

1837
01:06:59,910 --> 01:06:58,160
he talks about how he became friends

1838
01:07:02,470 --> 01:06:59,920
with benowitz and tells the story that

1839
01:07:05,029 --> 01:07:02,480
at one point he went to benowitz as a

1840
01:07:07,029 --> 01:07:05,039
friend and told him that all this crazy

1841
01:07:08,789 --> 01:07:07,039
ufo stuff was destroying him and that he

1842
01:07:11,589 --> 01:07:08,799
needed to let it go

1843
01:07:13,510 --> 01:07:11,599
bennowitz refused and dodi continued to

1844
01:07:16,390 --> 01:07:13,520
terrorize him despite his rapidly

1845
01:07:18,870 --> 01:07:16,400
deteriorating physical and mental health

1846
01:07:21,510 --> 01:07:18,880
any normal human being finds the story

1847
01:07:23,829 --> 01:07:21,520
to be chilling and even repugnant but

1848
01:07:26,549 --> 01:07:23,839
dodie seemingly feels no regret and

1849
01:07:28,470 --> 01:07:26,559
takes zero accountability for the very

1850
01:07:31,029 --> 01:07:28,480
real harm that his actions inflicted

1851
01:07:32,950 --> 01:07:31,039
upon someone that he to this day i saw

1852
01:07:33,829 --> 01:07:32,960
him do it on twitter today calls a

1853
01:07:35,829 --> 01:07:33,839
friend

1854
01:07:37,190 --> 01:07:35,839
as he tells it he was just doing what he

1855
01:07:42,150 --> 01:07:37,200
was told

1856
01:07:45,029 --> 01:07:42,160
and to discredit and to muddy the waters

1857
01:07:46,309 --> 01:07:45,039
so completely as to utterly compromise

1858
01:07:48,870 --> 01:07:46,319
his targets

1859
01:07:51,109 --> 01:07:48,880
to do that he says that some of what he

1860
01:07:53,430 --> 01:07:51,119
fed his targets was true this is a

1861
01:07:55,270 --> 01:07:53,440
common counterintelligence tactic and

1862
01:07:57,349 --> 01:07:55,280
according to dodie one of the smartest

1863
01:07:59,430 --> 01:07:57,359
ways to do this is to make it so that

1864
01:08:01,589 --> 01:07:59,440
some of the most unbelievable details

1865
01:08:03,750 --> 01:08:01,599
included in the disinformation are the

1866
01:08:06,470 --> 01:08:03,760
ones that are actually true

1867
01:08:08,069 --> 01:08:06,480
do you see how complicated this gets

1868
01:08:10,789 --> 01:08:08,079
what are we to make of the fact that

1869
01:08:13,990 --> 01:08:10,799
dodie admits to all of this what parts

1870
01:08:15,670 --> 01:08:14,000
should we believe all of it none of it

1871
01:08:17,749 --> 01:08:15,680
and it's all made more complicated by

1872
01:08:20,309 --> 01:08:17,759
the fact that dodie continues to involve

1873
01:08:21,829 --> 01:08:20,319
himself in the ufo community he attends

1874
01:08:23,510 --> 01:08:21,839
conferences and participates in

1875
01:08:25,749 --> 01:08:23,520
television shows and documentaries where

1876
01:08:27,749 --> 01:08:25,759
he openly talks about his disinformation

1877
01:08:30,070 --> 01:08:27,759
campaigns within the community

1878
01:08:31,990 --> 01:08:30,080
weirder still he now also claims that

1879
01:08:34,550 --> 01:08:32,000
he's seen proof that the united states

1880
01:08:36,950 --> 01:08:34,560
has contact with ets and that we're in

1881
01:08:40,229 --> 01:08:36,960
possession of non-human technology and

1882
01:08:41,749 --> 01:08:40,239
more so he's now profiting off the very

1883
01:08:44,149 --> 01:08:41,759
community in which he reached so much

1884
01:08:46,870 --> 01:08:44,159
havoc havoc that had real and lasting

1885
01:08:48,550 --> 01:08:46,880
consequences in real people's lives

1886
01:08:50,550 --> 01:08:48,560
the whole thing isn't just ethically

1887
01:08:51,590 --> 01:08:50,560
but it creates even more

1888
01:08:53,990 --> 01:08:51,600
questions

1889
01:08:55,829 --> 01:08:54,000
is he still lying is this just the next

1890
01:08:58,149 --> 01:08:55,839
phase of the deception

1891
01:09:00,630 --> 01:08:58,159
or is what he says now true

1892
01:09:02,309 --> 01:09:00,640
does he even know what's true

1893
01:09:04,709 --> 01:09:02,319
there's a scene near the end of mirage

1894
01:09:06,709 --> 01:09:04,719
men that i found particularly compelling

1895
01:09:07,910 --> 01:09:06,719
where richard dodi is describing how he

1896
01:09:09,349 --> 01:09:07,920
was read into the government's

1897
01:09:11,829 --> 01:09:09,359
involvement with ufos and

1898
01:09:13,590 --> 01:09:11,839
extraterrestrial beings he says that he

1899
01:09:14,950 --> 01:09:13,600
was shown documents and photographs

1900
01:09:17,269 --> 01:09:14,960
about these secretive government

1901
01:09:19,590 --> 01:09:17,279
programs and even saw a video of an

1902
01:09:21,510 --> 01:09:19,600
alien talking in front of a camera

1903
01:09:23,829 --> 01:09:21,520
and as he's talking and saying all these

1904
01:09:25,430 --> 01:09:23,839
fantastical things you can't help but

1905
01:09:27,590 --> 01:09:25,440
notice the similarities between the

1906
01:09:29,269 --> 01:09:27,600
alleged reading in and the meeting that

1907
01:09:30,630 --> 01:09:29,279
he had with linda molten how at kirtland

1908
01:09:32,390 --> 01:09:30,640
air force base

1909
01:09:34,309 --> 01:09:32,400
let's assume that this has actually

1910
01:09:36,309 --> 01:09:34,319
happened which with someone like dodie

1911
01:09:37,269 --> 01:09:36,319
you can never assume but let's say it's

1912
01:09:39,510 --> 01:09:37,279
true

1913
01:09:41,110 --> 01:09:39,520
how do we know that what dodie was told

1914
01:09:42,070 --> 01:09:41,120
was even the truth

1915
01:09:43,430 --> 01:09:42,080
could the us be running

1916
01:09:45,189 --> 01:09:43,440
counterintelligence on its own

1917
01:09:46,470 --> 01:09:45,199
counter-intelligence people

1918
01:09:47,990 --> 01:09:46,480
if you're going to embed a

1919
01:09:50,070 --> 01:09:48,000
counterintelligence agent within a

1920
01:09:51,349 --> 01:09:50,080
community that you're hoping to surveil

1921
01:09:53,749 --> 01:09:51,359
wouldn't it make sense for that person

1922
01:09:55,750 --> 01:09:53,759
to be also misinformed that seems like a

1923
01:09:57,750 --> 01:09:55,760
pretty smart fail safe

1924
01:09:59,350 --> 01:09:57,760
so how could anyone hope to find the

1925
01:10:01,270 --> 01:09:59,360
truth in any of this

1926
01:10:03,590 --> 01:10:01,280
as linda moulton howe poignantly said in

1927
01:10:06,390 --> 01:10:03,600
mirage men it's a fractured hall of

1928
01:10:08,070 --> 01:10:06,400
mirrors with a quicksand floor

1929
01:10:09,270 --> 01:10:08,080
so let's get back to our original

1930
01:10:10,950 --> 01:10:09,280
question that brought us down this

1931
01:10:13,350 --> 01:10:10,960
tangential rabbit hole

1932
01:10:15,270 --> 01:10:13,360
is linda moltenhouse credible

1933
01:10:17,510 --> 01:10:15,280
in her defense the fact that she was

1934
01:10:19,750 --> 01:10:17,520
targeted by dodie suggests that she was

1935
01:10:21,590 --> 01:10:19,760
getting close to something

1936
01:10:23,669 --> 01:10:21,600
it seems likely that the timing of this

1937
01:10:26,229 --> 01:10:23,679
first contact with her coinciding with

1938
01:10:27,910 --> 01:10:26,239
her signing the contract with hbo was

1939
01:10:30,229 --> 01:10:27,920
not coincidental

1940
01:10:32,149 --> 01:10:30,239
so whether she actually had as jody said

1941
01:10:34,630 --> 01:10:32,159
to her blindsided the government with

1942
01:10:35,910 --> 01:10:34,640
her documentary on cattle mutilation or

1943
01:10:37,830 --> 01:10:35,920
whether they were just trying to

1944
01:10:40,229 --> 01:10:37,840
dissuade mainstream media outlets from

1945
01:10:41,830 --> 01:10:40,239
reporting on any of this seriously

1946
01:10:43,110 --> 01:10:41,840
something that she did ruffled some

1947
01:10:45,910 --> 01:10:43,120
feathers

1948
01:10:47,990 --> 01:10:45,920
however 40 years later her credibility

1949
01:10:50,070 --> 01:10:48,000
continues to be called into question

1950
01:10:51,990 --> 01:10:50,080
largely because she continues to present

1951
01:10:54,470 --> 01:10:52,000
information that she got from dodie as

1952
01:10:57,030 --> 01:10:54,480
fact without any sort of caveat about

1953
01:11:00,070 --> 01:10:57,040
the provenance of this information

1954
01:11:02,310 --> 01:11:00,080
it's very strange because she admits to

1955
01:11:03,990 --> 01:11:02,320
talking to dodie she admits to getting

1956
01:11:05,110 --> 01:11:04,000
this information from him

1957
01:11:07,350 --> 01:11:05,120
she admits that he was a

1958
01:11:09,430 --> 01:11:07,360
counterintelligence agent but there's

1959
01:11:11,189 --> 01:11:09,440
this weird sort of cognitive dissonance

1960
01:11:13,110 --> 01:11:11,199
that seems to prevent her from truly

1961
01:11:14,630 --> 01:11:13,120
accepting the full impact of what all

1962
01:11:17,669 --> 01:11:14,640
that means

1963
01:11:19,350 --> 01:11:17,679
in january of 2022 linda molten howe was

1964
01:11:21,030 --> 01:11:19,360
interviewed by kurt jaimungle on

1965
01:11:23,189 --> 01:11:21,040
theories of everything and there was

1966
01:11:24,630 --> 01:11:23,199
this very strange exchange that happened

1967
01:11:26,070 --> 01:11:24,640
near the end

1968
01:11:27,830 --> 01:11:26,080
she first is asked about her

1969
01:11:29,270 --> 01:11:27,840
relationship with richard dodie and she

1970
01:11:30,870 --> 01:11:29,280
goes on to tell basically the whole

1971
01:11:33,189 --> 01:11:30,880
story that i just told you about the

1972
01:11:34,790 --> 01:11:33,199
deal with hbo her meeting with dodie and

1973
01:11:36,709 --> 01:11:34,800
the deal falling apart

1974
01:11:38,870 --> 01:11:36,719
but in telling this story she doesn't

1975
01:11:40,950 --> 01:11:38,880
really seem to factor in or even to

1976
01:11:43,350 --> 01:11:40,960
really acknowledge the fact that dodie

1977
01:11:45,830 --> 01:11:43,360
is a known counterintelligence agent who

1978
01:11:47,110 --> 01:11:45,840
has famously and publicly admitted to

1979
01:11:49,590 --> 01:11:47,120
lying to her

1980
01:11:51,590 --> 01:11:49,600
and then this happens listen

1981
01:11:52,550 --> 01:11:51,600
do you feel that you were misinformed by

1982
01:11:55,669 --> 01:11:52,560
dodie

1983
01:11:58,709 --> 01:11:55,679
anybody who is an air force office

1984
01:12:02,070 --> 01:11:58,719
of special investigations agent that is

1985
01:12:03,590 --> 01:12:02,080
their job counter intelligence is what

1986
01:12:05,350 --> 01:12:03,600
they do

1987
01:12:07,510 --> 01:12:05,360
so yes or no

1988
01:12:10,630 --> 01:12:07,520
brad is giving me a signal that my mic

1989
01:12:13,189 --> 01:12:10,640
battery is going to die okay okay

1990
01:12:14,709 --> 01:12:13,199
weird right and shortly thereafter kurt

1991
01:12:16,790 --> 01:12:14,719
asks her another question from a

1992
01:12:19,350 --> 01:12:16,800
listener about whether or not she's ever

1993
01:12:21,350 --> 01:12:19,360
had to redact a story at which point she

1994
01:12:22,950 --> 01:12:21,360
stormed out of the interview

1995
01:12:24,229 --> 01:12:22,960
as always i'll have that all linked up

1996
01:12:26,070 --> 01:12:24,239
in the episode brief so that you can

1997
01:12:28,470 --> 01:12:26,080
check it out for yourself

1998
01:12:30,870 --> 01:12:28,480
i have a lot of empathy for linda molten

1999
01:12:32,790 --> 01:12:30,880
howe she's clearly intelligent

2000
01:12:35,270 --> 01:12:32,800
hardworking and driven

2001
01:12:37,510 --> 01:12:35,280
and like i said she's a trailblazer in

2002
01:12:39,750 --> 01:12:37,520
many respects and a seemingly fearless

2003
01:12:41,990 --> 01:12:39,760
one and i also think it's important to

2004
01:12:43,110 --> 01:12:42,000
recognize the human element in all of

2005
01:12:44,870 --> 01:12:43,120
this

2006
01:12:47,189 --> 01:12:44,880
she wasn't just intentionally lied to

2007
01:12:49,430 --> 01:12:47,199
and misled she was personally and

2008
01:12:51,189 --> 01:12:49,440
professionally torpedoed by what dodie

2009
01:12:53,350 --> 01:12:51,199
did to her

2010
01:12:55,350 --> 01:12:53,360
at the height of her career a career

2011
01:12:57,750 --> 01:12:55,360
that she had built out of her own sweat

2012
01:13:00,470 --> 01:12:57,760
passion and talent she had the biggest

2013
01:13:02,229 --> 01:13:00,480
opportunity that she had ever had taken

2014
01:13:03,350 --> 01:13:02,239
from her and had her name dragged

2015
01:13:04,950 --> 01:13:03,360
through the mud

2016
01:13:07,110 --> 01:13:04,960
she was ruined in the sphere of

2017
01:13:09,590 --> 01:13:07,120
mainstream journalism and although she's

2018
01:13:11,350 --> 01:13:09,600
made quite the career in the ufo space

2019
01:13:12,870 --> 01:13:11,360
her name will always have an asterisk

2020
01:13:14,550 --> 01:13:12,880
next to it

2021
01:13:16,709 --> 01:13:14,560
i think it's hard to judge unless you

2022
01:13:18,149 --> 01:13:16,719
walked a mile in those shoes

2023
01:13:20,310 --> 01:13:18,159
but even i have a hard time

2024
01:13:22,310 --> 01:13:20,320
understanding her stance on dodie and

2025
01:13:23,990 --> 01:13:22,320
her seeming refusal to grapple with the

2026
01:13:26,950 --> 01:13:24,000
reality and the impact of what's

2027
01:13:29,750 --> 01:13:26,960
happened at least publicly

2028
01:13:31,590 --> 01:13:29,760
so how should we approach her work now

2029
01:13:34,149 --> 01:13:31,600
what do we make of stories of alien

2030
01:13:35,430 --> 01:13:34,159
bases in antarctica and a secret space

2031
01:13:37,270 --> 01:13:35,440
program in cooperation with

2032
01:13:39,590 --> 01:13:37,280
extraterrestrials in ancient

2033
01:13:40,550 --> 01:13:39,600
civilizations on mars and all the rest

2034
01:13:42,470 --> 01:13:40,560
of it

2035
01:13:45,510 --> 01:13:42,480
i'll simply say this

2036
01:13:47,990 --> 01:13:45,520
how's work is undoubtedly significant

2037
01:13:51,189 --> 01:13:48,000
but the truth of it still lies somewhere

2038
01:13:53,750 --> 01:13:51,199
in that fractured hall of mirrors

2039
01:13:55,669 --> 01:13:53,760
and finally we come to our final theory

2040
01:13:58,070 --> 01:13:55,679
as to what the germans may have found in

2041
01:14:00,070 --> 01:13:58,080
antarctica in 1938

2042
01:14:01,669 --> 01:14:00,080
and despite the deeply weird path that

2043
01:14:03,750 --> 01:14:01,679
we've taken to get here

2044
01:14:04,709 --> 01:14:03,760
this theory is perhaps the most bizarre

2045
01:14:07,189 --> 01:14:04,719
of all

2046
01:14:08,790 --> 01:14:07,199
the entrance to hollow earth

2047
01:14:10,950 --> 01:14:08,800
and there's a lot more to this story

2048
01:14:13,669 --> 01:14:10,960
than you might think and at the center

2049
01:14:16,550 --> 01:14:13,679
of this incredible tale is one man a

2050
01:14:18,790 --> 01:14:16,560
famed explorer and real american hero

2051
01:14:20,709 --> 01:14:18,800
admiral richard e bird

2052
01:14:24,520 --> 01:14:20,719
and that's where we'll pick up next time